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Throwing stones from the security of your glass house.

What glass house? I don't run red lights, I think it's wrong. Are you going to at any point justify equating RLJ cyclists with speeding motorists?

I'm not trying to counter your argument as its pointless and self serving.

You may feel comfortable defending your own actions by comparing them to something completely different, and I commend you for your faith in yourself, but I suggest that the "look over there- that's worse!" approach to justification is a precarious one to rely on.

What actions do you suppose I get up to?

And failing to connect with my argument is simply admitting yours is wrong. I havn't really made any direct statement about what cycling behave we should expect to see. I am only saying that trying to assert a moral equivalence between speeding motorists and RLJ cyclists is falacious.

At the very start I stated I wasn't acting in defence of RLJ cyclists, my own take on it is that picking and choosing which laws we abide by is a dodgy way to go about things. However cycling and driving a car are fundamentally different acts with regards to dangers to society and as such breaches of the law by the two parties can be treated differently without condoning either.

right list time;

1. Hairnetnic
   
   

And I'm booking the 18:45 to get there at 20:30 and the 13:30 from Exeter on the 5th.

I figure a short ride back to exeter will easier than cramming the train at exmouth? I havn't done this before so dono't know what's sensible...

Anyone else thinking of taking this on?

currently you can get train tickets; Padd to Bristol, £10, And Exeter to Padd £22.50

You are (deliberately?) missing the point.

Both camps put "their" offence into the "petty" box and the other groups offence into the "grave" box.

Until we, as a group, realise that we are in denial about this we are never going to escape being labelled a bunch of hipocrites.

Your own assertions on what is serious and what is not is irrelevant, unless you are just being an apologist for those that RLJ.

EDIT kind of what Tiswas said- until we admit we have a problem, and therefore lose the "us and them", we are going nowhere.

It's be nice if motorists admitted they have a problem, also.

I'm not missing the point I'm denying it. You have failed to counter my argument by at any point trying to show how different defences for different actions can be treated differently. ie You can defend RLJ by cyclists without having to worry about justifying those who defend speeding by motorists.

I have washed several rapha bits on the 'wool' wash, hung to dry and they have come up fine...

It looks very much like it's defending RLJ.

But that aside- have a look at what you've just written, and then look at motivations for people breaking the law.

"It harms no-one, I've never hit anyone, everyone does it, I'm not sorry that I do it I just want to get where I'm going a bit faster"

Is that a cyclist talking about RLJ, or a motorist talking about speeding?

Its your point, you justify it. Defending people who break petty laws is not the same as defending people who break more grave laws. Where you put speeding/RLJ in there is up to you, but they are not in the same place.

It's the same trite bollocks that's wheeled out by all and sundry when you want to see your circulation / web hits boosted.

The IAM is standing on the sidelines, throwing stones at an easy target, knowing full well that it will stir up emotive reactions, about an issue that has no fundamental impact on anyone.

Which they then disingenuously misrepresent the shit out of.

Cynic.

If we stopped defending cyclists who RLJ we might gain a bit of credibility.

At the moment we sound like motorists defending speeding.

This would only make sense if morally speaking car speeding = cycle RLJing.

This isn't to defend RLJ, rather to point out speeding motorists kill and maim every single day, RLJ cyclists injure peds on a yearly frequency and never harm motorists. The two offences are not equivalent and hence efforts to defend one or the other are also not equivalent.

In the eyes of the law, is cycling through a red on the same level as cycling on the pavement, or cycling without lights? Also, at night, is it more illegal to cycle on the road without lights, or illegally on the pavement where laws potentially don't apply regarding lights at all???

They are all covered by fixed penalty notices, 25/50 quid or court plus fees, go see the blog 'uk cycle rules' for details!

can't wait to see the new tag
wac

hah.

The questions asked for that a truly horrible, it is essentially meaningless. Far too much chance overlap in the categories.

And then there are the categories which allow a very generous range of headlines/conclusions to be applied as mentioned above. Yes 56% report jumping a red, so what? To what amount has scoiety been harmed by this? You cannot tell from this questionnaire.

Finally the fact it is a self reported unverified web survey confirms it is unreliable.

Sorry for slightly incoherent ramble, too much tea today.

Rolled down to Hastings with anothersam and Tonyme. Great weather for it, light northerly pushing me along the flat nicely. Unfortunately I had booked a train that required me going off the front just outside battle,apologies to the guys for that.

Great route that really showed the best of the English countryside.

I bombed down to greeenwich last night, swapped brief pleasentries with one of five (five!) security guards loitering outside the Cutty Sark, swooped back to Euston, Fired up the computer only to find braker had leisurely completed the task 15 minutes before...

One day I will bag one of these... One day.

I think understand what's going on, but I've no idea where to head to bag it...

fucking good work, Not that it's worth much but I'm impressed

Have we had dinner?

Not that I'm aware of, but I don't know what a lot of you look like in real life...

Oh the shame!

Get's down on knees and humbly begs forgiveness of fellow forumengers

Forgiven?

I wouldn't get down on my knees anywhere near this lot...

It is. NB it's the Flask in Highgate, not the one in Hampstead.

Cool, see you guys next week.

South end of Waterloo bridge, by the nationalfilm theatre. Turn up around 6:45 and you can't miss it. PS. Last Friday of the month.

Hey guys, is this still held at The Flask? I fancy meeting some new people next Tuesday!

In case it helps, this cyclist is riding past, in sunshine that brings the Bahamas to mind...

Hmm, I think I know where that black hoarding is...

yeah, mea culpa. For a bit I thought it was some kind of instagram effect... wishful thinking!

oh, you son of a bitch. I was looking at the geometry and thinking something wasn't quite right...

New and old:

Old was south end of Gower Street, Some old style pipe/hat/umbrella shop.

New, not so far away, a Presedential sort of place...

new