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And yes, an untrained driver (via the current driving test method) is just as safe assuming they have common sense, awareness, empathy for other road users etc,. Those that don't are the ones that put you in danger every time you ride (test or no test)

So you're saying that because education can't modify behaviour, the poor standard of driving and subsequent high road mortality rate in countries like Chad, Afghanistan, Ethiopia (or all other countries with a 'drive round some cones' test) has nothing to do with a lack of training, and is purely down to some genetic predisposition for bad driving? Britain has some of the safest roads in the world, and you don't think this has anything to do with the fact that we have one of the most complete driver education systems and one of the hardest tests?

All the evidence disagrees with you, if you would care to look it up. Education can and does change the way that people act. Teach people how to drive around cyclists and at least some of them will remember it; surely that's better than not being taught at all?

Yep, sure does. I drive on the road every single day and don't see much good practice. And the drivers that have most recently passed their test are more likely to be in an accident which clearly means they are not following the good practice from their lessons and test.
If all drivers drove as if they were on their driving test how many accidents do you think would happen and how would they happen?

Let me be very clear - I don't think, and have never said, that 'everyday' driving is the same as 'driving test driving', and experience is just as important as education; however, there is also a very clear correlation between good education and good driving practice. Your assertion that pro-cyclist training is pointless because 'all practice goes out the window' is demonstrably false; a higher level of driver education leads to a better standard of driving - this has been proven statistically, regardless of your personal anecdotes. To put it another way - if 'all the practice goes out the window' then an untrained driver would be just as safe as a well-trained one!

The difference between UK and Sweden and Netherlands is that the risk of injury for cyclists is much higher here and the number of serious injuries is increasing.
In the Netherlands kids of about 11 have to do a practical and theory cycling exam in school. If the petition called for Bikeability level 3 as a prerequisite for a UK driving licence then high schools would be queuing up to provide it.

Absolutely - although experience is also a factor, this is more evidence that pro-cyclist driver education leads to safer conditions for cyclists.

All the good practice goes out the window after the test? Rubbish; go to a country with a poor quality of driver education and you see a poor quality of driving! The UK has a rather well-developed driver education system, and one of the toughest tests, and consequently we have the lowest road deaths (per capita, per vehicle and per mile - doesn't matter how you measure it) of almost anywhere in the world.

I would say that most poor driver-cyclist interactions are down to the driver simply never being informed about how to interact around cyclists.

Very much not a fan of the traditionally styled bikepacking bags above. Framebag's too wide (an internal baffle would've stopped this) and looks the wrong shape for the frame (like it has been plonked in there). The seatpack looks like it'll wobble around - the saddle strap isn't tight and the seatpost strap is at a funny angle. And those admittedly beautiful little leather tags (the brass whatsit that pokes a hole through the leather) don't offer any adjustment, so you wouldn't be able to cinch the straps up tight.

They're probably wonderfully made, but they look poorly designed to me.

That would be the ideal situation, I suppose. A lot of countries have progressive licensing (for things like driving at night, driving cars over a certain power/weight ratio); we already have it for motorbikes. Perhaps to pass from a probationary licence to a full licence you need to have completed modules (learn the material and go in for a 1-hour practical skills workshop/exam, or something) in things like advanced vehicle control, driving in adverse weather, basic vehicle maintenance, as well as how to cycle/drive around cyclists. I quite like this idea - learning to drive is already extremely expensive, so staggering the cost out over a few years could give a higher level of training without it being prohibitively expensive.

Local authorities already do offer 'bikeability' to schools, but I don't know the mechanics of how it is funded. I would imagine that a lot of local authorities or schools simply can't work it into their budget.

I'd think a drum brake would be the most durable braking system; three pairs of shoes will last a lifetime and the drum itself will likely never need replacing.

Scratch that, a coaster brake will last even longer than drum - the friction material is brass! Should last a lifetime and are mechanically even simpler and more robust than drums.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2W_35mgBwk

Not a music video as such... but hilarious from about 50 seconds in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nqb-1Lf4QX4

Unwatchably bad.

I would definitely be interested in some for off-road touring; I have flat pedals at the moment as I'd rather cycle in walking shoes than have to carry two pairs.

I'd think a drum brake would be the most durable braking system; three pairs of shoes will last a lifetime and the drum itself will likely never need replacing.

the relevant Government department have provided the following response:

"Blah blah blah blah, evrerthing is fine as it is, we couldn't possibly make any realistic changes"

Defeatist, buck-passing bollocks. Signed.

?

No, they said they couldn't realistically ensure that a learner would encounter a cyclist on their practical test. Fair enough, isn't it?

I do think that learners need better education, and I have signed the petition, but I don't think its aims are particularly clear or well-worded. We all know that "cycle awareness [should be] a core part of driver training", but what specific guidance should learners be given? And for the sake of comparison, what are the other 'cores' of learning, and how are they taught? Perhaps a car-park exercise in which the instructor places some cones down (representing a cyclist) and the learner is instructed on how to pass them.

^ yep, I think it's a great idea.

Done.

Much obliged!

Wonderful explanation. Have you any plans to sell your pedals, Geoff? I would be interested in a pair.

Sure, PM'ed.

I crushed something (cartilage?) in my chest last summer when pulling at a stubborn pedal spanner with both hands as hard as I possibly could whilst bracing my chest against the saddle. I was mid full-on red faced eye bulging strain and something just went crrrrrrunch in my ribs. Was totally winded and couldn't move comfortably for about two months afterwards. Neato.

Christ that sounds bloody awful. I had something like that happen to me years ago when a friend stood on my chest. It was bloody painful for a few months afterwards and even a year later I could feel it 'ticking' if I rolled over in bed.

Sure, the flash is a Holgon - nowt special. I paid £40 for the lens so I'd like to get that back - pm me for details if you're interested.

Yes, apparently Grand Bois do a 650bx42c in black, which I didn't know existed. This is great - good alternative to those cream/red ones that only look good on certain bikes.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/aca633c9066246114648fb42cbdc7003/tumblr_mhxbnvh04y1qgwe7to1_500.jpg

NAHBS wank fodder

Edit - This is going to be a bit divisive

Bike's fugly. What tyres are those, though?

Yeah, but only if you manufacture cranks to match it, otherwise you're stuck with standard 9/16". You could have it widening up to whatever diameter you want (improving stiffness but increasing q-factor) but the tapering section will always reduce stiffness.

Looks like a perfectly good functional bike, but this isn't really the thread for it.

EDIT - Seen the before pic - I call troll.

He has also introduced a new problem - pedals will be pretty flexy for the same weight. May not be a problem for non-racing cyclists.

Bloody show off...

Some gaspipe Raleigh in about 2007, paint was left over from repraying my old Datsun. No idea how I managed to ride such a small frame (64cm now). Still using those pedals/clips/straps.

Surprised that so few people have heard of Cleland bikes. If you've ever ridden a mountain bike then you've been influenced by Geoff Apps' work.

Geoff actually recently sold a 1980s Cleland on Retrobike for a grand. It's more handsome than the modern one:

Added some more bits as well.