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I was prepared to accept Leinders until all the recent details emerging about his time at Rabobank and the various riders saying he injected them with Poe. Up until now he was only implicated by association, being a Doctor at Rabo when there was team-wide doping; now it appears he was the ring-leader and comparable to Ferrari and Fuentes potentially. We shall see as the fallout continues.

Whatever the facts Sky have massive questions to answer. Hiring a very dodgy doctor on the sly with very sketchy justification (the death of soigneur due to bacterial infection during the Vuelta, treatment of saddle sores) then a 51-win season, dominating stage-races and taking the scalp of the Tour?

Of course it's plausible that Leinders did eff-all, and his presence was innocent, but either way it needs to be explained thoroughly.

I said this to friends this weekend gone and got the roll-eyes treatment. Their reasoning was that Wiggins had far too much to lose, but when did that stop sportsmen before?

I pretty much agree with you, with some caveats that Brad's performances at Garmin were totally plausible, whereas Lance's after 1996 weren't (even if I did delude myself at the time that they were). On balance, it seems likely that Brad is not doped, as the gains in performance just aren't there.

There's no argument at all that Sky have some questions to answer about Leinders. And Wiggo & Cavendish have to man up and face facts. The biggest name in english-speaking cycle sport has admitted to sporting fraud over 7 years of the Tour. Of course we, the public, are suspicious. Of course journalists, if they are doing their job, should be asking questions if the number 1 team in cycling employ a doctor who has since been implicated in systematic doping of riders.

I asked RonaldMcdonalds cycling about this reply is below...

*Dear timcolnago,

Clearly shows how much you know.

• macdonaldcyclesaccount
  Reply in your email program or through My Messages
  
  
  
  
  

From: timcolnago
To: macdonaldcyclesaccount
Subject: Details about the item: timcolnago sent a message about Raleigh Lo-pro ex team bike 753 used by Malcolm Elliot #140908567930
Sent Date: 23-Jan-13 01:48:49 GMT

Dear macdonaldcyclesaccount,

I,m a bit sceptical. Firstly dont think Elliot rode for Raleigh Banana so why would he use a Low Pro kitted out in banana livery second not sure Elliot ever did an attempt on the hour record. Also why 531 forks on a 753 frame?

• timcolnago
  
  

*

LOL I dropped Malcolm an E mail via facebook. He was kind enough to reply...

'*Hi Tim
Thats really funny! Let me clarify:
Not my bike, though I did have something very similar to it in blue and white Raleigh Weinmann colours for 1985 Pro Pursuit Champs when I won.
At no time in my career did I ever even think of attempting the hour record.
My last season with Raleigh Weinmann was 1985, whereas Raleigh Banana came into being in 1987 I believe.
Its not impossible that they raked my old bike out and resprayed it though.
Regards
Malcolm'*

Nuff said, really. Bullshitter.

And in any case, we are talking about a 30 year frame, which wasn't looked after all that well (lots of pics on the tt thread showing extremely rusty chain), so the idea that it's worth more £600 complete is entirely laughable. The Raleigh-Banana colours, whilst by no means the most disgusting of the mid-late 80s livery, are still not all that nice. An early 80s Team Raleigh track frame on the other hand...

no nothing offical, but i read on cyclingnews earlier, on the comments people saying Sky are juiced.

And that's your source? Watch out, David Walsh.

Off the Grauniad comments:

The ball boy is lucky. if it was Terry, he would have shagged him. cole would have shot him. Torres though would have missed him.

Hazard is an idiot, the ball-boy was obviously trying to help his team in any way he can, which has happened at all football grounds since at least the 1960s (there's a quote from a player, can't remember which, about how all the ball-boys at Elland Road would disappear when Leeds took the lead). If Hazard had man-handled the Swansea keeper, and then used his leg like that on him, to try and get the ball back after a goal, he would have got a red card for that.

On a more serious note, anyone know how Potts got knocked unconscious at the Arsenal? He was out cold on the pitch, and only came round in the ambulance, according to twitter.

Except he touched the ball not the man.

It was the same ball-boy that faked the moon-landing, and was on the grassy knoll that day in Dallas, and also placed the demolition charges in the twin towers.

One must admit its an odd world when Gianni Bugno gets banned for 3 months for drinking one espresso too many in 1994... the same year a number of footballers (such as Maradona) were so high on cocain that...

A small point, but Maradona was popped at 1994 World Cup for ephedrine, which was actual proper doping, not recreational. He is widely rumoured to have had major cocaine habit at various times in his career, though, allegedly well into it whilst he was playing for Napoli in late 80s early 90s, supposedly supplied to him by the Neopolitan Camorra.

I am really intrigued. This is what is written in Time Trialling Forum about the frame.

*The original frame is up in MacDonald cycles in Edinburgh, and a good chat with Colin the owner gave the providence for the old frame.

'Apparently Malcolm Elliot had the frame made for him for his attempt on the record just before the Banana Team came to being. When he ordered the frame from the Special Products Division he was told that it would be done in the new Raleigh Team colours, so of course he was expecting something in blue and white to come out of the box........apparently it did give him a bit of a shock when the yellow and black beastie was pulled out!

The attempt on the record didn't go very well shall we say which is possibly why not many people know about it.'
*

The Banana Team came ran two seasons first was in 88. I am really intrigued by this. I can't find any other referance to his attempt other than the time trailing forum.

The idea that an attempt on the World Hour Record could be staged low-key, just in case it turned out badly is laughable. You have to hire a velodrome & UCI-approved officials to oversee the attempt otherwise IT WILL NOT BE RATIFIED! It's not just a case of bunking in to HHV with some mates and a stop-watch. Even in the pre-internet age, a mere mention of the possibility of an attempt on the most prestigious record in world cycling would be news all over Europe.

Whoever posted that is either talking a big load of doo-doo, or is very, very gullible.

I don't think Elliott ever attempted the Hour Record, although he did do some pursuiting when he was much younger. He did ride for Raleigh-Weinmann, but not Raleigh-Banana, and in any case, the 753 transfer on the seat-tube is from the late 80s, IIRC, by which time Elliott was either at ANC-Halford (85 - 87), Fagor (88) or Teka (89 +).

I'm not sure it could be so widespread in football as to be noticeable in the above situation.

As far as I can remeber, there has never been a suspected case of doping in English football, the closest thing that comes to mind would be Rio Ferdinand missing his drugs test to go shopping. There has been no whistleblower, no retired ex-pros coming clean, and no media exposés. I don't think for a second that it is completely clean, but I don't think it can be so widespread as to be normal. .

As I keep pointing out, there is almost no dope testing in football.

Also, Stewart Robson has said in the past that his career was shortened by the regime of pain-killing injections that were administered to him by the Arsenal medical team. In 70s & 80s, pro football teams routinely used 'pain-killing' injections to treat knee injuries. Guess what was in these injections.

Typical Cycling Weakly reader

I actually bought it. As for the comic, I was one of those saddoes who used to buy it on Wednesday to get first bite of the good stuff in the classifieds.

Read it in the paper on Sunday. A very good piece but Walsh's book is better.

I read it in the paper too, a good piece but then I looked at the rest of the paper and felt dirty.

But to joke about armstrong and cancer if rather different. He is target for jokes at his expense because of his behaviour. He is a target for sick, cancer-related jokes because he has traded on his cancer and even used it to help cover up deeply disgusting behaviour which would probably have lead to many of us wishing death on him if he'd done those things to our loved ones.

I'm trying to think of a decent comparison. Joking that people who have been on the dole for 10 years are all lazy scroungers is IMHO completely unacceptable. But to make the same joke about an individual who boasts about the the size of their TV whilst saying that the government are a soft touch and showing off that he hasn't worked for 10 years (because working is for mugs) is entirely different.

I agree. His stance all along has been to hide behind his cancer, even using it to explain his sudden transformation from explosive one day rider into stage race rider, and even hinting that any EPO positives might have been due to chemo on occasion.

Er, didn't realise this until I read Hoberman's interview with VeloNews*, but Sepp Blatter is on the WADA board.

As I keep saying, I remember Arsene Wenger commenting that less than half of his first team squad had EVER been dope tested - this was some years ago, but when he had been in the job for 5 or 6 years.

There's a misperception that because football is skill-based, doping wouldn't have such a great impact, which is clearly not true anymore, as all elite football coaching regimes are focusing on marginal gains, and the ability to keep running that little bit longer than the opposition is clearly an advantage, especially in view of the number of goals that elite teams score in the last few minutes of games.

The whole town ?

Yeah, the whole town. You never heard of the 1978 Essex disaster?

The problem I think is not doping in cycling but doping in sport and, above all, the influence of FIFA. Yes football. Football players are not just doped with performance enhancement drugs--- the German national team won the 1954 cup on a high dosis of injected Methylamphetamin (aka Crystal Meth) --- but party drugs and the games have nearly the sports content of American professional wrestling. Even when teams get caught with their "pants down" in game manipulation nothing happens.. Look at Italy. After being caught match fixing in 2005 Inter-milan won from 2006 to 2010 5 times in a row the Italian league title.. Every country where football is money has their scandals but they are nothing but the tip of the iceberg..

Worth pointing out that in 1954, this kind of 'preparation' was not contrary to the laws of football, or indeed criminal law, IIRC.

No question that there is, and has been, wide-spread doping in football, if the widespread rumours are to be believe. Operation Puerto had a list of names of leading football stars, if reports are to be believed. Juventus are also believed to have systematically doped their players during the 90s, as was alleged Zdenek Zeman, then coach of Roma.

The benefits of doping to football players is pretty clear, given the general increase in fitness (endurance, i.e. the ability to keep running & strength / explosive power, i.e. the speed to run away from opposing players).

I think the headline may have been 'sur un autre planete' on another planet

Of all the Armstrong guff in the press, David Walsh talking about Sestriere in 99 Tour is priceless, when the press corp were watching the stage & Armstrong takes off, everyone in the room just starts laughing. Sums it up really!

I can't remember the exact headline l'Equipe ran the next day, but it was something like 'Extraterrestrial', playing on the Armstrong name thing. I didn't catch the allusion, but this was back when l'Equipe was still prepared to question Lance's (or indeed any leading cyclist's) super-human performances. The headline writing was obliquely suggesting that Lance's ride was 'assisted'.

Someone rep Will for this. Apparently I'm not being enough of a rep spreader.

Too much muck-spreading, no doubt. Done.

I made those posts 'panicerveza' and I'll sue the fuck out of anyone who says otherwise.

Liar. I have an eye-witness report that you were snorting tequila, and I also heard that someone heard you say that you were 'made up'.

Maybe I'm wrong, but there wasn't many 80 kg climbers before the 90s. I see Indurain as the beginning of a change for the body type vs performance relationship, which could be explained by oxygenation enhancing drugs that allowed to irrigate a lot more muscle.

I guess it all depends on what you mean by 'climber'. Most people would have defined a climber as being able to produce an explosive acceleration going up hill, creating a gap, and then holding it, and then being able to go again & again as the chasers come back up, with the intent of forcing the pursuers into the red, and provoking a collapse.

Indurain's style was not to attack in the hills (although he did drop LeMond to win a stage in '90, but right at the end of the stage), as he normally had minutes in hand on the climbers by the time the race go to the mountains, but to wait for the attack and then reel them back in by riding a strong tempo, normally with the help of guys like Delgado, J-F Bernard etc, which fits with the feat of oxygen transport that you describe.

He almost always limited the atttacker's gains to a manageable loss in terms, but would often leave the attacker out front, enabling them to win the stage, or accumulate enough KoM points to put them in the jersey, thus leaving the rider with a substantial scrap from his table. This strategy (of allowing other riders & teams to share in the spoils, if they weren't a direct threat on overall) enabled him to muster a successful chase behind Once on the infamous stage to Mende in 94, when he was several minutes down, and without any team-mates.

Easy to miss I guess,unless you read all my postings in this thread in context, which is a big ask ;-)

Read other people's posts on this forum? Do people still do that? :-)

I always remember went Bob Millar was unlucky not to win @ isola 2000 in the 93 Tour, after leading over the Col de Bonette etc. At the end former teamate Allan Pipier said to Rob, "great ride mate, if it wasn"t for Indurian you would"ve won" Millar "well what can you do Indurain rode" In other words put the hammer down. But how the fuck does a 6ft 2in 80kg approx rider blow away a pure climber 5ft 6in 60kg. Its gotta be juice. ps regarding Mottet he won 2 stages in a row in 91 Tour the second a mountain stage, on bread & water. Pure heroic stuff.

Yeah, I treasure Millar's comment about blowing his brains out at the top of the Bonnette.

I guess I will always regard the guys from that era (late 80s) as giants, because that was my introduction to the sport, but another great memory is of Mottet, Delgado & Millar out on the attack to Superbagneres in '89, Mottet & Delgado trying to take time from Fignon, LeMond and the other favourites, Millar going for the stage win... mayhem behind... attacks & counter-attacks...

This by the way, was meant as utter and complete sarcasm, but you already know that.

Ha! I totally missed that. I was in rant-tunnel mode. :-)

Indurain's performances were more plausible than Lance's because his VO2 max was enormous, but the idea that he could outclimb guys like LeMond, Millar, Hampsten, Claveyrolat, Mottet, Delgado was not. As we all should have realised at the time.