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my point about speed and cars is about here and now safety but it is also about over time (months and years) changing our culture and accepted norms of behaviour.

and i think that reducing speeds to 20 mph in all built up areas would change the morphology of our towns, cities and villages and how we use them. and reduce car usage and therefore road deaths and road injuries etc.

so for example a spin off would be that people would spend less on cars etc and more on other goods and services - for example a better education for their children or on other interests.

that is kind of what i am advocating - changing culture and to do it we need a policy / paradigm shift.

^ well said.

oh no. i ride up there as well.

thoughts and prayers to families and friends.

awful awful awful.

sure many will focus on the driver, his nationality, his skin colour, that he was doing drugs, that he was a banned driver.

but for me those are all side or non issues. the problem is that the road and the car allowed him to drive and speed and thereby inject too much danger into our community.

if he had been a wayward pedestrian on drugs the riders would not have been killed.

it is the fact that he was in the car and speeding that killed the riders.

lets not forget that many road deaths (circa 4,000 every day) do not invlove drugs etc.

in some ways the driver is also a victim (of motoring policies and culture). but i think he is absolutely awful and should be punished.

but i also think the the car makers, the road builders and the road policy makers should be in the dock along with him. imo they also have a case to answer.

the politicans really need to get a grip on road policy and driving culture. it is an anarchic free for all and we, the people, are all suffering.

looking forward to it.

thoughts and prayers to the family and friends and family.

it reminds me of the one in liverpool about 2 years ago. that crash killed four riders.

and still they keep denying there is an issue.

i had an incident with a ped yesterday.

he was running for his bus. he saw me and then couldn't decide whether to cross or not.

a glancing blow ensued.

still first one in many years riding in london.

so not too bad.

but yes it does involve riding considerately.

london is full of people and it helps if we all try to rub along together - safely.

i prefer people when they are a pedestrian to when they are a driver.

buses and oil tankers are dangerous.

i have only just seen this.

a related point is that there is so much road crime about that the prisons are not big enough to house all the pesistent road crime offenders.

but that does strengthen the argument for 20 mph and speed bumps in residential areas. i.e. we acknowledge we cannot get them off the road therefore we will have to slow them down before they cause danger to other road users.

and before you all start howling - cos you have done before. i dont like speed bumps either. they are uncomfortable. but i have now lost four people i know to road death. and i am prepared to put up with the discomfort and inconvenince of speed bumps to try and reduce road death.

see you out there.

i suppose i asked for that.

being on the n16 border the sovereign e5 is a quite a long way north.

and you may find some that live further south in the e's attend less frequently.

not sure yet.

ahh tom that is bad planning. it would have good to ride together.

vinerrider and i have just signed up on the 0931 slot.

on the positive side like.

i would quite like to know my vo2 max.

i like vimto - but it is northern thang.

lets hope rider recovers.

don't like buses.

^ ha ha ;-)

i think i will wear them next week.

good seeing you guys last night.

but grace please get some gloves ;-)

^ is it unlucky to post on no 13 ?

yep sounds good to me.

see you lot there.

see you guys later.

i think charlotte and grace are going to pop along as well.

hopefully next week.

i am not going to make it. too tired.