Avatar for Hjusth


Member since Jan 2020 • Last active Oct 2020
  • 13 conversations

Most recent activity

  • in COVID-19
    Avatar for Hjusth

    Are we on 4 or 5 ‘alas’? I lost count.

  • in COVID-19
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    We aren't in a war. A war is fairly clearly defined as something else (eg armed conflict between different groups of people) and this isn't a war. It's also not a battle. People that die from Covid didn't die because they didn't fight hard enough.

    Other things that need coordinated society change that also aren't wars include the mess we have made of the planet.

    I fully agree with just a note that war is, sadly, being redefined by certain global powers. My point is that Covid (and yes, climate change) are as risky and disruptive as a war, maybe even more so. However, while we mostly all agree that it’s a danger, we haven’t taken it as seriously as a society as we would a massive war.

    Radar71, I don’t think people who want more information or question why certain decisions are made are traitors.

    If we aren't surrounded by sick people all day, then why the hell are we supposed to be wearing masks?

    If you’re surrounded by people showing symptoms, like in a hospital, then a cloth mask isn’t the protection you’d need. That’s what your own source says. If you’re trying to live a normal life going out to shops and seeing friends, then you may come across someone who’s sick but isn’t showing symptoms. If they’re wearing a mask, as well as keeping social distance, then you have a better chance of not getting sick from them. If you somehow still get sick and don’t show symptoms yourself, then by wearing a mask and keeping social distance you reduce the chances of getting someone else sick.

    That’s why you should wear a mask.

  • in COVID-19
    Avatar for Hjusth

    The study cited (not unfounded) is in a hospital complex, true. So what?

    The study says Vietnamese hospital healthcare workers wearing cloth masks had higher infection rates. Those folks are surrounded by infection risks for multiple hours a day. The average person, who you are writing for, isn’t in a hospital surrounded by sick people all day, so the study doesn’t fully apply to them does it? Therefore, your statement that cloth masks double chances of infection for the reader is unfounded.

    As I said previously, let’s definitely discuss how best to tackle one of the greatest challenges of our generation, but let’s stick to the facts.

  • in COVID-19
    Avatar for Hjusth

    This article from The Lancet says that masks can be useful now:

    In summary, the current best evidence includes the possibility of important relative and absolute benefits of wearing a facemask.

    While also noting that careful research is needed to prove definitively the impact of masks:

    (...) given the paucity of evidence for severe adverse effects that more invasive interventions have, wearing a facemask might be acceptable in many situations, despite the need for more evidence.


  • in COVID-19
    Avatar for Hjusth

    BUT wearing a CLOTH mask doubles your chances of infection.

    My guess is you wrote that to start a discussion, and you haven’t changed it even though you’ve agreed it’s an unfounded statement. Is your aim to start a discussion about a highly political topic? (Sadly, this issue has become political, like you said in your first post.) If that is your aim, then you’re using incorrect info to achieve an aim, that’s disinformation.

    Since you bring up WW2, I’ll mention that there’s been a few articles written recently about how we’re in the middle of WW3: Humanity against Covid. We need coordinated, society-wide efforts in order to beat this thing. Right now, Britain is losing this war. Right now, Britain is divided against a common enemy. Let’s definitely discuss what strategies and tools are useful, but let’s do it rationally, using correct information to do so.

  • in COVID-19
    Avatar for Hjusth

    I'm not a lawyer.

    We all have flaws, being a lawyer happens to be one of mine.

  • in COVID-19
    Avatar for Hjusth

    Debate all you’d like, I’m a lawyer, I live for it, but if you’re going to misrepresent something you’re using as evidence, don’t be surprised when you’re called out on it.


    btw: the findings of the last study (2015) were that paper masks or non masks make no difference ultimately, (...) BUT wearing a CLOTH mask doubles your chances of infection. (...)

    Emphasis mine.

    The study does not prove this, unless you’re talking to Vietnamese healthcare workers in hospital settings. Scientists could take this as a starting point for further investigation, but you’re wrong in saying that using a cloth mask is more dangerous than not using a mask. Given that people die from getting these decisions wrong, I find it reckless.

    I had assumed good faith, so I suggested you amend your post and explained why. You didn’t address my point that your post included disinformation, you only took issue with my ‘accusation’. I’ve explained my point in further detail, and hopefully you can explain how your statement isn’t disinformation, as part of the discussion.

    Edited to lower my word count.

  • in COVID-19
    Avatar for Hjusth

    Please consider amending your comment to avoid spreading frankly dangerous disinfo. The 2015 study focuses on healthcare workers in a hospital setting wearing cloth masks, particularly in comparison to surgical grade masks; it does not analyse the effect of generalised use of cloth masks in a non-hospital setting. Suggesting that using a cloth mask in the latter scenario increases one’s chance of COVID-19 infection is unscientific, and IMO reckless.

    The authors of that very study published a letter about cloth mask use to address C19 in March this year:

    COVID-19, shortages of masks and the use of cloth masks as a last resort
    Chandini R MacIntyre, Academic physician The Kirby Institute, University of New South Wales
    Other Contributors:
    Chi Dung Tham, Academic physician
    Holly Seale, Academic
    Abrar Chughtai, Academic physician

    Critical shortages of personal protective equipment (PPE) have resulted in the US Centers for Disease Control downgrading their recommendations for health workers treating COVID-19 patients from respirators to surgical masks and finally to home-made cloth masks. As authors of the only published randomised controlled clinical trial of cloth masks, we have been getting daily emails about this from health workers concerned about using cloth masks. The study found that cloth mask wearers had higher rates of infection than even the standard practice control group of health workers, and the filtration provided by cloth masks was poor compared to surgical masks. At the time of the study, there had been very little work done in this space, and so little thought into how to improve the protective value of the cloth masks. Until now, most guidelines on PPE did not even mention cloth masks, despite many health workers in Asia using them.

    Health workers are asking us if they should wear no mask at all if cloth masks are the only option. Our research does not condone health workers working unprotected. We recommend that health workers should not work during the COVID-19 pandemic without respiratory protection as a matter of work health and safety. In addition, if health workers get infected, high rates of staff absenteeism from illness may also affect health system capacity to respond. Some health workers may still choose to work in inadequate PPE. In this case, the physical barrier provided by a cloth mask may afford some protection, but likely much less than a surgical mask or a respirator.

    It is important to note that some subjects in the control arm wore surgical masks, which could explain why cloth masks performed poorly compared to the control group. We also did an analysis of all mask wearers, and the higher infection rate in cloth mask group persisted. The cloth masks may have been worse in our study because they were not washed well enough – they may become damp and contaminated. The cloth masks used in our study were products manufactured locally, and fabrics can vary in quality. This and other limitations were also discussed.

    There are now numerous reports of health workers wearing home made cloth masks, or re-using disposable mask and respirators, and asking for guidance. If health workers choose to work in these circumstances, guidance should be given around the use.

    There have been a number of laboratory studies looking at the effectiveness of different types of cloth materials, single versus multiple layers and about the role that filters can play. However, none have been tested in a clinical trial for efficacy. If health workers choose to work using cloth masks, we suggest that they have at least two and cycle them, so that each one can be washed and dried after daily use. Sanitizer spray or UV disinfection boxes can be used to clean them during breaks in a single day. These are pragmatic, rather than evidence-based suggestions, given the situation.

    Finally for COVID-19, wearing a mask is not enough to protect healthcare workers – use of gloves and goggles are also required as a minimum, as SARS-CoV-2 may infect not only through the respiratory route, but also through contact with contaminated surfaces and self-contamination.

  • in General
    Avatar for Hjusth

    Got out just in time.