That Starmer fella...

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  • I quite like Nandy as well and think she would do well in the red wall seats. Andy Burnham has been the most impressive opposition politician during the pandemic and would be my first pick. Starmer has been mostly absent throughout other than PMQ.

  • Everyone set to tune in to Desert Island Discs then?

  • Sorry if some of that came off frustrated at you specifically - it wasn't, it was more a general argument against the kinds of pushback I've got over the years when trying to be a good ally to my Jewish pals. I totally understand how difficult it can be for us non-Jews to recognise antisemitism when it comes in its more passive form, we need someone to point it out to us, so I think it's reasonable for you to need examples - I don't think you're lazy or stupid or nefarious.

    But on the other side of the argument, more of my sympathy in trying to understand the exhaustion and frustration of our Jewish mates when they're spent the last five years telling us about these problems, often to great personal cost. I know people who've lost friends over this. And in return, they've have found themselves minimised, ignored, or ridiculed, by a small but vocal minority of the left.

    I'm glad those examples were useful. I do hope you'll reflect on them. I think if you do so honestly you'll end up in the same place I am - I don't think Corbyn is likely to be marching around in jackboots any time soon, but I do think he has an enormous blind spot, and we do no-one any favours by pretending it doesn't exist.

  • He just chose Three Lions on Desert Island Discs. Dead to me.

  • Am confused, listened to the podcast last week. Always thought that came out after the broadcast

  • Stormzy was a bit cringe but otherwise I thought it was a good listen. Not a DID classic tho like Ant and Dec's.

  • No Slayer, No Vote

  • Thanks for both posts, I’ve seen a lot of different interpretations and explaining away but I can see how these things have accumulated for those on the sharp end.

  • I don't think Corbyn is likely to be marching around in jackboots any time soon, but I do think he has an enormous blind spot

    I think this is very true, and it seems to be a blindspot he hasn't worked on. I think it's a bit of a disservice to call him a racist though, he's racist in the same way pretty much everyone is to some degree in one way or another, hopefully in a way they can learn from and minimise, but he's also anti-racist at the same time which is weird but I guess possible. He's not a racist in the same way as a lot of horrible people are though, current PM, Trump, Farrage, plenty of other politicians or many of the general population included and lumping him in with people like that seems wrong to me because it would become a very big lump very quickly and end up including most people including myself. Either way his boat has sailed, both for being leader or meaningfully getting past his anti-Semitism blind spot.

  • In unrelated news.
    I just reported a post on our company Facebook page where some guy said that the clothing would suit a jigger. Facebook investigated it and saw no issue.

  • Is that an awful portmanteau?

  • That's exactly right imo. What helped me a lot was being able to put racism in two different buckets, active and passive. Active racism is the kind we all grew up with in the 80s, the skinheads and the p*ki bashing and active discrimination and 'wouldn't want one living next to you' and all that shite. I think we as a society have gotten pretty good at calling that stuff out. And then the other kind of active racism is the Trump / Farage kind - it's the exact same deliberate discrimination, but it's smart enough to hide behind nice middle class words and phrases - we're less good at spotting that as a society, but those of us on the left are really good at spotting both.

    Then there's the more passive, subconscious kind, which is only really revealed by things people say unconsciously, and how they react to being called out on it. When my parents say they're 'popping up the P*ki shop' they're not being actively racist. It's purely unconscious. They'd say they weren't being hateful. They probably wouldn't even recognise it as racism when I point it out - well, it's just short for Pakistani, isn't it? - no hate intended. In fact they might become quite annoyed with me for saying it's racist. 'I don't have a racist bone in my body, I helped Mr Patel move house remember?'. All that stuff.

    This is the kind of blind spot Corbyn has. And those of us on the left are not great at spotting this sort of thing, especially not where it relates to Jewish people. And the pro-Corbyn outlets whose job it is to defend him no matter what (Canary, Skawkbox, et al) don't help us to do the growing we need to really recognise and internalise these issues. They just tell us there's no problem, that it's exaggerated, that it's not serious, that it's a few malcontents. And the problem just festers and gets worse and worse and worse and the denial gets more and more extreme and we end up in this horrible, horrible situation.

  • I don't see a difference between a 'blindspot' and racism but if it is easier for left wingers to accept that he has a 'blindspot' then I suppose we have to take what we can get. I (and alot of Jews) do believe that the guy is an antisemite and I don't see a difference between his racism and that of Nigel Farage's or Boris Johnson's.

    Noone has a'blindspot' on their negative/discriminatory attitudes towards People of Colour, they are just racists.

    Anyway, I have nothing more to say as @BleakRefs has thankfully summed it up perfectly. Good on Kier Starmer for standing up for Jewish people and listening to us, long may it continue. The Stormzy thing was definitely cringe though

  • Orange Juice though. I can get behind someone who has held Edwin Collins close to his heart for a long time...

  • No, it was useful and I really appreciate the response. As much as everyone is exhausted of the topic – especially our Jewish comrades – the last month, particularly Keith's clumsy PR response to a process and policy issue, has shown that this likely now isn't going anywhere fast.

    Like many, I thought the suggestions of the EHRC report were on point, and should be put in place in full [unequivocally]. Likewise I think it describes some really tragic institutional failings, in a fairly comprehensive and undeniable way, that absolutely need to be dealt with, without argument.

    What I don't see justified is the politicised misrepresentation of the findings and exaggerated gravitas of particular findings in relation to Corbyn individually. It's incredibly frustrating to see and can only be stifling to the learning and healing that clearly needs to happen within party.

    It's prescient given the passed weeks seeing Starmer’s climb-down, climb-up fumble and subsequent suspension and reinstatement of Corbyn, but also because it highlights the disconnect between those accusing Corbyn and those defending him.

    interfering in antisemitism cases to let his friends off the hook - see Glyn Secker in particular, but there were 23 examples in that report

    Personally I agree that the Glyn Secker case is particularly troublesome out of the cases that are known, but seems mostly isolated in terms of the style of intervention and outcome. There were 70 cases investigated, 2 cases of ‘illegal antisemitism’ found, both of which occurred prior to Corbyn's leadership. 23 of these were inappropriate involvement manifested as ‘political interference’, when most evidence points to Corbyn's leadership team pushing senior Labour officials to expedite the investigations rather than letting anyone "off the hook". As an aside – one important aspect overlooked by the EHRC report is the well documented context of friction at Labour HQ that had created the crisis of process in the first place and required leadership to intervene.

    There are plenty of indisputable instances where Corbyn has failed to see how his own pro-Palestinian, anti-war, anti-Apartheid politics might manifest in a way that can be perceived as having an anti-Jewish tone. I agree there is an issue that he has a ‘blind spot’ as you've put it, but there are undeniably instances of accusations being exaggerated, distorted or fabricated. The Tunisia Wreath Saga is a prime example of this, as evidenced on the previous page. FACTCHECK: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-4­5196409

    The only upshot is it makes it increasingly complex and difficult for those that need to listen to see that accusations are made in good faith, especially if the same rhetoric is coming from outlets like the JC, the Express and other mainstream right wing rags.

    Pity about the anti Semitic piece of shit that was leader before him.

    Any kind of reconciliation and empathy is going to be hard won by those of both sides of this issue. What doesn't help is hyperbolic, wilfully misrepresentative defamatory statements like this

  • Noone has a'blindspot' on their negative/discriminatory attitudes towards People of Colour, they are just racists.

    I'm not sure that's true, some of it might get mixed up with older generation casual racism and there's people who might not be actively racist but maybe react by holding their phone tighter when asked a question in the street by a black guy rather than assuming it's just a question from a white guy, plenty of mostly unconscious stuff like that a lot of people are guilty of that seems closer to Corbyn's actions to me than outright discrimination, but that's just my opinion man, and I think I can probably keep it and agree that from the sharper end of that stick you can consider it more, it's wrong either way.

  • In unrelated news.

    I just reported a post on our company Facebook page where some guy said that the clothing would suit a jigger. Facebook investigated it and saw no issue.

    Maybe they saw the episode of QI where they talked about the meanings of Jigger

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMnMi6IB­-EA

  • Get fucked. I see him as an anti semitic piece of shit. Saying its wilfully misrepresentative and defamatory shows that you are part of the problem and haven't listened to any of the previous two pages of useful interjections. We've been through this. Your opinion on this subject is not wanted or important. Zero interest in any reconciliation with people who minimise antisemitism either, I have no tolerance for you. Bye

  • lmao there's not going to be any learning or healing or reconciliation. starmer is spineless and has shown this week exactly how this is going to play out - he'll be buffeted this way and that by all the rw forces in this benighted country until there's no trace of the transformative programme labour recently put forward. he should hang his head in shame for whipping the party to abstain on the spy cops bill

  • @snottyotter fair cop, I can agree to disagree on that and rate your general comments on this subject.
    Think I'm putting this thread on ignore now as its all abit exhausting and I have no desperate desire to be some weird little self appointed lfgss ambassador for disapora jewry

  • Good luck with that 👍

  • What’s the mechanisms for removing the leader of the Labour Party? We might as well get it done sooner rather than later.

    Just checked... 20% of PLP I think.

  • That seems fair enough. Shall I put the star of David bat signal on hold?

  • You wont be happy when he gets them to abstain on the Brexit deal then :)

  • don't really care about brexit if I'm being honest and haven't since the question was asked and answered in 2016. what a colossal waste of time and energy the past few years were on that front. my sincere congrats tho to all the cynical grifters and labour right shitheads who astroturfed a second referendum campaign in order to wedge labour and ditch their electoral prospects, all for the benefit of entitled blairites. thank you for guaranteeing a hard brexit lads

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That Starmer fella...

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