That Starmer fella...

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  • The UKPolitics subreddit is absolutely intolerable when the Labour Party situation comes up, all these little toads crawl out of the woodwork jerking each other off about how the labour parties problems are all because of 'wokeism', and whenever anyone brings up the survey that only like 6% of voters gave the slightest of fucks about that issue, it gets downvoted into invisibility.

    Since the EU elections in 2014 the sub got brigaded hard by 4chan UKIP supporters all claiming to be ex labour but labour went too politically correct for them so they abandoned all their social and economic views and became right wingers. Of course they never fucked off.

  • The UKPolitics subreddit is absolutely intolerable when the Labour Party situation comes up, all these little toads crawl out of the woodwork jerking each other off about how the labour parties problems are all because of 'wokeism'

    Isn't that also 70% of the content of this thread?

  • Isn't that also 70% of the content of this thread?

    Is this a helpful comment, croft? Does it foster a feeling of brotherhood and cordiality throughout the thread? Are you adding to the sum total of understanding in the world with it? Oh croft. Are we so different, you and I? Why can't we all just get along?

    Also glad to see Starmer finally being a bit bolder with vision. (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/202­1/may/16/keir-starmer-vows-all-new-labou­r-manifesto-and-economic-offer)

    I was offering fairly unqualified support to Starmer in order to give him a chance to deliver on his strategy, but if Hartlepool tells us anything it's that that strategy isn't fucking well working, is it, and we need a new approach.

    Personally I'd like to see something more explicitly prepared to call out the impact of Brexit - we don't have to go full remain/rejoin but I think it's a dereliction of duty not to mention the way NI and SMEs have been thrown to the wolves. But I don't really care about direction as long as it's credible and likely to win us some elections. This socially right / economically left stuff is just not working.

  • Also Owen Jones was amazing this week.

    Owen Jones at the weekend: STARMER NEEDS NEW IDEAS

    Owen Jones after that Guardian piece: NOT THOSE ONES

  • Jones's point was that during his leadership campaign Starmer said the 2017 manifesto should be their foundational document. That never materialised, and now Starmer says they're ditching it.

  • I guess there's a few troubles with the 2017 manifesto being the guiding document. The obvious is that it was the guiding document for 2019 and that didn't go at all well (and Starmer should obviously have known that), the other is that they've just suffered a heavy defeat and need some flexibility.

    Personally I don't think it's a huge deal but I'm not really ideologically wedded to the left or right. I can't see that all of the stomping of feet is really going to help the party though.

  • sounds undemocratic to me

  • The one thing that seemed to have been genuinely popular amongst the public with labour in 2019 were their policies. Building on that might have been a good strategy. But Starmer's decided to instead use this as another opportunity to distance himself from Corbyn while also trying to pin blame for the recent elections on him via the policies established during his time as leader. You can understand why he's doing it, I suppose. And as an added bonus, it looks like he gets to work with the newly rebranded center/right of the party developing those policies.

  • Main problem is the tories will probably implement most of the policies from 2017/2019

  • If what you primarily want is those policies implemented, then would that be so bad?

  • Yeah, they'll find a way of doing bits of it for the benefit of their mates but getting good press off them rather than doing them properly for the benefit of everyone.

  • Like the minimum wage rebrand to living wage that isn't a living wage.

  • And as an added bonus, it looks like he gets to work with the newly rebranded center/right of the party developing those policies.

    Out with the old, in with the New (Labour)

  • Ok - I'd argue in that case they're not really doing it then. E.g. on your living wage example, either it factually increases wages or it doesn't.

  • I think this is true but it ignores two other things:

    1. Difference between individual measures being popular and whole package being popular - voters don't trust too many expensive spending pledges, and

    2. Additional political capital from confounding expectations. Like it or not, people seem to give Tories more credit for spending pledges than Lab because it's less expected.

    Not saying this means abandon 2017 pledges, but it's not as simple as saying "this was popular so don't change anything"

  • excited to finally see what starmer policy looks like checks calendar 14 months after his election.

  • excited to finally see what starmer policy looks like checks calendar 14 months after his election.

    Afraid you're out of luck then. The policy review is supposed to take 18-24 months.

  • Not saying this means abandon 2017 pledges, but it's not as simple as saying "this was popular so don't change anything"

    Not sure anyone said that. In fact, if you were replying to me, what I actually said was: "Building on that [previous policies] might have been a good strategy."

  • Starmer the candidate: vote for me, I will have policies just like these ones, the ones you like and will vote for me for saying I like them
    Starmer the leader: hah, you rubes, you fucking morons, here's some shit I got handed by Mandelson

  • picks up guitar

    "Oh how many times must the electorate / reject our 2017 manifesto?
    How often must voters doors be slammed / and doorwalkers eat their lunch al fresco?
    How many times must Labour get spanked / before we get our risorgimento?

    Owen Jones reckons the answer is not 'three'
    The answer is apparently 'not three'"

  • They rejected it because we didn't have a "magic money tree" not because they didn't like it, turns out we do have a magic money tree.

  • no issue with him putting the 17/19 manifestos in the bin, just think he should seek an updated mandate from the membership though if that's his intention (given the prospectus on which he secured the leadership). that's just me though

  • Sorry - yes I was replying to you (phone loses the "reply to" bit sometimes).

    I don't think he's saying they're dumping the 2017 manifesto completely, though. Feels to me like we were in a "keep some, change some" place before, and probably still are...

  • Sorry - yes I was replying to you (phone loses the "reply to" bit sometimes).

    Yeah, no worries.

    I don't think he's saying they're dumping the 2017 manifesto completely, though. Feels to me like we were in a "keep some, change some" place before, and probably still are...

    That's the way it was framed at the Q&A. Neither Corbyn nor Blair; ditch all previous manifestos and reinvent what Labour (policies) are. We'll see how that works, though.

    And on the democratic mandate part @cozey mentioned - I'd not thought about that to be honest. If the aim is to be as radical as he claims, though, I think there's a real point there. He did call for the 2017 manifesto to be the Labour foundational document.

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That Starmer fella...

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