Panettone appreciation

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  • Here it is, first slice of the season. Wilko’s finest red box goodness.

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  • First attempt this year, never had much luck with this before but giving it a more concerted effort this year. Flour is not strong enough though, first one came barely halfway up the case and ripped itself apart when inverted. Panettone is difficult!

    Will get some vital wheat gluten next week and give it another crack.

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  • 2nd one looking slightly less bad. You can see where the surface has ripped and let all the gases out.

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  • Maybe weaker flour not stronger.

  • maybe, but I don't think so. Could probably get away with it on the second mix, but doing some reading it seems notorious for demanding stronger flours. If you look at good ones there is no tearing on top, just mottling where the dough stretches but doesn't tear, you can see I got a bit of that but then it's given way.

    After an hour of mixing it was starting to come together, but never lifted from the bowl. Stronger flour should provide great extensibilty and provide the structure to maintain what will be about 70% air.

    I've managed a half decent rise before (see previous page) but can't remember which flour that was, possibly Bacaldre which is a bit stronger than what I have now. That was also fresh yeast this with lievito madre, but I'm not convinced that's the reason.

    Still tasty so no tears.

  • Usually the flour is Italian bread flour so is usually 'weaker' than the US/canadian. I'm going on nothing more than what gran and aunt taught me. There is a saying in Italian that washing a donkeys head wastes time, water and soap. This is the perfect analogy of teaching me to bake. Wish I paid more attention.

    Are you glazing the top with egg or milk?

    Are you hand or machine mixing?

    EDIT: Any fuck ups can be made in to bread and butter pudding.

  • 00 flour could, in theory be higher protein content though couldn't it? All I know is the recipe I used called a for a very strong flour and the way the dough behaved told me mine wasn't stong enough. I'd experiment with both but the process is so long I'm inclined to go stronger first.

    Machine mixing, don't think you can really do it by hand, not totally anyway, the dough would get too warm.

  • Would personally stick with strong flour. Haven't had any issues from strong flour, so long as its fresh.

    How quickly are you adding sugar & water? Both need to go in pretty slowly to incorporate properly and keep the gluten developing. Should be a nice ball after an hours mixing that pulls cleanly from the side of the bowel.

    Edit - meant to say very strong flour.

  • No idea on the protein content of the flour.

    Only recent experience is Kenwood a701 with the dough hook, and using a poolish. Then multiple rises, as part of the sweet bread is the at least double rise. Well it is for me.

  • Strong flour, as in normal bread flour? Do you add dry candid fruits and extra yolk?

  • Ah, mixing myself up. Checking my cupboards, last I got was Allison's very strong white bread flour (its what sainsburys had). Which worked well.

    Do add candied lemon & orange, and sultanas. And extra egg yolk.

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  • Neg rep for the wood slice.

    Stoopid question Do you make your own candied orange and lemon? Have wanted to try and use muscavado sugar in the syrup. Am not a fan the shop stuff as I feel that it is the pith and, to me, is wrong.

    Have you guys tried other flours such as wholemeal? Have sieved the flour and it is in my head that it just normal flour coloured with bits added.

  • Do make my own candied orange and lemon. Muscovado will be nice in the syrup, give a bit of depth. And have not tried other flours... like the current recipe, and don't have the heart to risk them failing after 3 days work.

    The wood slice... Will find a nice square one next time for internet points ;)

  • Bit late to this, but that's an excellent crumb. I was really happy with mine, but never managed an even crumb.

    I see you had success again this year, did the hard starter mixing not put you off? My flatmate threw my starter away in Oct and I realised even then it was too late. Now Brexit's holding all the good panettone at the border so I've given up this year.

  • Sorry I'm jumping in mid-conversation so I might be missing the mark, but I was confused by this too. 00 flour just describes the grind and section of the wheat used (more selective I think), it doesn't indicate protein content necessarily, however 00 flour is primarily used for pasta and pizza dough so it might coincidentally be a higher protein flour, depending on which version you get. I've read that even if you get the high protein pasta 00 flour that the durum gluten behaves differently to "regular" wheat flour and is less stringy and elastic.

    I switched from Canadian strong to 00 flour and it was a complete disaster because I happened to get a relatively low protein version. Waitrose Canadian Strong flour has worked in every bread recipe I've tried, it's the best because it available and uncomplicated. You need all the gluten you can muster.

  • 00 flour for pizza is about 12% protein, pasta is about 9% and for panettone is about 15/16%. I have some of this but have never had results like LHL!

  • Yeah 15-16% is the benchmark I've read. Much better results on the first dough this morning adding 10g of wheat gluten to bring my 12.6% flour up to 15% in theory.

    edit: and also a bit less water. I sieved off the peel from the water after overnight soak, so I assume it soaked in to that.

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  • Cheers :). Not sure what you mean by hard starter mixing? I built up a sourdough starter last year when learning how to make panettone, and put it in the freezer when done. Week or so feeding this year and it was fine.

  • Not sure what you mean by hard starter mixing?

    The pasta madre in the recipe I used was 50% hydration so it was stiff to mix. The method is to roll it out into a ribbon before rolling tightly, then giving it a bath now and then. It was incredibly active by December.­A_A

  • Now square would be neg rep worth, but a square trunk with bark round the edge would cause a rip in the rep/neg universe.

    Nice looking panettone by the way.

    Have not made any panettone this year. Don't have an oven. Also use I usually use an ikea ordning pot with parchment cut to line the pot.

    Now to the seriousness, I use muscavado as like the taste over normal sugar. Am a diabetic so I like the extra taste but then get concerned about too many flavours. Do like making candied lemons, limes and oranges. But once again never sure that I'm using the right oranges as I really don't like the pith and then worry about the orange 'skin' being waxed.

    Sometimes I like to add fresh ginger to the mix or some all spice or nutmeg and cinnamon. But then I also add sutanas and raisens that have been soaked in ginger wine. So what do I know.

    With Italian flour I am a little lost but here is the explanation I know. The numbers 000, 00, 0, 1, and 2 are the mills of flour. The smaller the number the finer the flour. Then there are types of flour hard (duro) and tenero (soft). Hard is higher gluten than soft. Then you can also semolina (in the UK) or durum wheat as it comes in two types ground and reground and the regound is the finer and used in fresh pasta. The ground is usually added to bread flour to increase the gluten content and make the bread harder.

    Think the best bet is the find a recipe that works and then tweak if you want.

  • Round 2

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  • Meh

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  • Might try this one next, it's a lot more specific on process, I can already pick out quite a few things I'm doing wrong. It'll have to be after Christmas now though.

  • Interesting video. One of those ones I watch and wonder why and how someone figured that out. Do you know if its meant for a specific bake/bread, or is just a good way to get an active starter?

  • Can vouch for the wildyeast recipe - it's the one I'm using :)

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Panettone appreciation

Posted by Avatar for Jonny69 @Jonny69