General Election 2019

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  • It’s not just about Brexit...

  • @velocio is involved with

    Spread it far and wide on all social media channels that you have an account please.

  • done

  • I'd love to find a place to read an open discussion/debate on parties and their policies devoid of emotional or idealistic attachment, could this be the place?

    This site is pretty left leaning but it would be great to hear from some Tory supports on the why?

    I only know one Tory and he's from a very very privileged background so views the world slightly differently to what I perceive as reality.

  • why

    Why they support the Tories? Right now I suspect the answer is that they don't want a Marxist PM. (IANATory, but I know a few)

  • Anybody who thinks Corbyn is a Marxist doesn't really understand what Marxism is.

  • And there we go, idealism and emotions... le sigh.

  • How many fucking forums, threads, tweets yada yada do I have to ignore? FFS.

  • Care to expand on that so I have some decent rebuttals in place?

    My standard rejoinder is that Marxism is a historical lens, rather than an ideological economic or social standpoint. That doesn't change the fact that people think that Corbyn's policies would screw the economy. I was certainly more comfortable with his position (being tempered by the wider party) before Momentum started trying to purge people who disagreed with his stance.

    What's most annoying though is that the prediction of leftists ruining the economy would largely appear to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

  • I genuinely didn't post that to be contentious. I didn't actually realise that you personally had that opinion.

    It's just that my understanding of what Marxism is is different to the policies that Corbyn is in favour of.

  • That doesn't change the fact that people think that Corbyn's policies would screw the economy

    is there any reasoning for this other than "he met with the IRA"

  • Sorry, you asked me to elaborate and I didn't.

    Corbyn's preferred policies are aimed at reform of the current capitalist system with gradual improvement of worker rights. For me, if that approach can be called Marxist, it's the most diluted down form of Marxism I could possibly imagine.

  • I didn't actually realise that you personally had that opinion.

    TBH, I don't actually know what my opinion of Corbyn is in its entirety. I think that my opinion of Labour in general has been based on what I felt they were likely to be able to change in terms of policy (what with them still having a fair number of more centrist MPs).

  • Anyway, apologies if my post came across poorly. Several people seem to think that was the intention.

    You say marxist, I say social democrat.

  • Boring personal reflection alert: My grandfather was a senior figure in the Czech and Austrian communist parties. My benchmark for comparison might be more skewed than most.

  • People have a pretty wide range of reasons in how they vote. I'd doubt many are rational and most are identity driven.

    I don't support the Conservatives and I suppose my natural party is the libdems - although my politics have changed over time.

    The vibe I get at the moment is there is a huge amount of genuine fear surrounding JC. Even though a few Tories I know are pretty discussed with the state of the party, the threat of a JC/JMcD government - especially JMcD as chancellor fills them with dread.

  • You say marxist, I say social democrat.

    Well I suspect we probably agree on quite a lot then. I think that the narrative has changed substantially, partly due to the influence of US political jargon. When you hear people railing against "socialism" nowadays it's really difficult to be certain whether they are actually referring to people who want to put the means of production in the hands of the people, or they're referring to people who just want to stop NHS cuts.

    I guess people's disquiet comes from the belief that Corbyn (and McDonnell) do cross the line from the latter to the former, especially with a properly leftist base and backbenchers.

  • partly due to the influence of US political jargon.

    I was just thinking exactly this. A place where socialism is an insult and covers everything from Hitler (wtaf) to Hillary Clinton

  • See, I dont think thats fair... there must be some people who support Tories because they believe X policy will have a positive impact on Y, which although an assumption will at least have KPI's.

    Lumping people in "Marxism" / "Socialism" or any "ism" is simplifying things too much, especially when peoples interpretation of those things varies.

    I just want facts god damn it, this should be a data driven decision not an emotive one.

  • I just want facts god damn it, this should be a data driven decision not an emotive one.

    Good luck with that, but unfortunately with Boris any "facts" he dishes out are likely to be false. He has identified the voters that he wants to appeal to, and ultimately fuck over, and is banking on combining the hard of thinking with the traditional unquestioning Tory base to win a majority.

    I desperately hope that this election is fought on facts but sadly I have a feeling that Johnson and Cummings are too good at selling snake oil to allow this to happen.

  • I imagine once the manifestos are released there'll be a few websites where they ask you questions and match you up to the party whose manifesto is closest.

    Given that lfgss is one big echo chamber on politics it may not be the best place for an open discussion/debate on parties and their policies devoid of emotional or idealistic attachment though.

  • The idea that LFGSS is a political echo chamber is just not true. If it were, I wouldn't consider so many of you to be cunts.

    It doesn't have very many (open) Tories or true-believer-Brexiters, however.

  • johnson strategy is just the nick timothy strategy on steroids i.e. "maximise the white vote." they're not going to win back voters that supported cameron in 2010 and 15 so they're going to look for narrow wins in LAB-held marginals in the midlands, wales and the north - places with fewer graduates, remain voters or ethnic minorities than average.

    as I said on the other thread: (1) don't think you can win a majority w/this; and, (2) the labour leadership are too canny for this - they will meet this trump-lite culture war nonsense with class politics + a better retail offer.

    similarly not convinced we will have this long mooted 'parliament Vs people election'. matt hancock was already on today this morning prosecuting this line and it came across as paper thin, particularly given that parliament actually voted for the WAB at second reading.

  • Essex man is yesterday’s man. It’s now Workington man that the stories are targeting. 50’s, leave voting, non-university educated, former Labour Party member/supporter from the north. I even heard call the target downs called ‘the rugby league towns’.
    I presume this is the group they have most identified as likely to vote for Farage and the Brexit party.

  • Predictions:

    People to post that their bored of this shit, even before the elections starts.

    An issues that no one has seen commin will take center stage, this always happens in election.

    No party will win an overall majority; so back to where we were.

    Still in EU on Feb 1st.

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General Election 2019

Posted by Avatar for dancing james @dancing james