*RARE* Waterford R33 Road Frame (True Temper S3) and Fork for sale!!!!!

TIG takes a lot less cleaning up than brazing, but your prep needs to be more thorough I understand.

I've done some very amateur brazing and zero TIG, so hardly an authority however.

Then you've got the new crop, who get extremely upset about anyone pointing out that using body filler to smooth fillets/welding is a bit disappointing.

Winston Vaz did some work for me recently and it was very impressive - I picked it up in the raw and then sent it off for paint.

I'd not trust any of the Bike Academy lot to make me anything more mission critical than a toast rack, however.

I'd not trust any of the Bike Academy lot to make me anything more mission critical than a toast rack, however.

Did lol.

@wildwest - I think you're missing the point. There's no hiding with a TIG frame. You can't fake good welds, even on a painted frame. You can absolutely hide with fillet. Which is why most people start off by fillet brazing.

I agree completely ... what I dont appreciate is tig frame being marketed as some sort of artisanal master pieces.
Some of the best welding can be seen on very average frames.
Often bespoke frame builder once they have established themselves start tig welding to speed up production.

I'd not trust any of the Bike Academy lot to make me anything more mission critical than a toast rack, however.

Do you mean the BA instructors, or the 'I've done a 10-day course and now I'm a custom framebuilder' crowd? (Do the instructors there really recommend body filler?)

you're reducing the quality of the frame to being dependant on how it's stuck together.

Tube selection, shaping, orientation, geometry are the larger part of that equation, which is where the real experience and quality will show imhop... I'd guess if Waterford have been doing it for 30 years their welds won't be the main reason why you're picking them.

Nobody ever said artisanal though. They merely used the phrase: incredibly well built frame

I'd beg to disagree with that point as well though. Look at a Firefly. Total works of art. They're TIG... but the artistry there comes down to the frame finishing.

I think there is confusion about what the word artisan means in the bike world.

noun
a worker in a skilled trade, especially one that involves making things by hand.

Good TIG frames ftw for me, and that Waterford is a banger.

I have two handbuilt TIG'd frames from very different companies and there's no contest in how well one of them is finished versus the other

This is revealing

Busy in here... cool, is it in your ownership?

Is there any more info on the geometry @Paon ?

Cheers,
Matt

Do you mean the BA instructors, or the 'I've done a 10-day course and now I'm a custom framebuilder' crowd? (Do the instructors there really recommend body filler?)

I know at least one of the instructors (although I think he's an ex-instructor) is very good, but I don't think that anyone who knows what they are doing lasts very long when in close proximity to Denham.

Speaking to people whom I respect who've done the frame builder course they are unanimous that it is very much the first step, and that a lot of further learning is required before building something that could be sold with a straight face.

It's one of Denham's instructors that got into a Facebook spat with old-school frame builders, defending his assertion that "everyone uses filler these days to make their brazing look good".

On that note, my alloy Boardman looked like it was carbon fibre until I blasted it, which took the layer of filler off and revealed the TIG welding. I therefore acknowledge that as a technique it's effective, but not what I'd want from a custom frame.

These days if I wanted something TIG'd I'd get an Isen, if I wanted something brazed I'd go to Geoff Roberts, if I wanted something repaired I'd go to Winston Vaz (this is influenced by where I live, there are other decent builders around the country, but I can't think of one of them that have had anything to do with the Bike Academy bar one.

Off topic but while you’re here was that R2Di2 Talbot yours? if it is and you ever considered selling I’d be interested!

You can absolutely hide with fillet. Which is why most people start off by fillet brazing.

Think that’s more to do with brazing equipment costing ~200 quid and TIG north of a grand tbh.
(I’m not offended 😂)

Who is the one from BA that meets your exacting standards?

One of Dammit's preferred builders suggests his standards aren't that exacting.

Probably unfair of me tbh. One was very new to TIG and I was totally up for it. The other has only ever TIGd. For multiple decades. Was simply stating that TIG is ‘not just TIG’.

Hello

It's my mates frame, I have popped him a message about your interest.

The frame is amazing. I had it for the weekend as a full bike

Cool, thank you!
I have a feeling it could be a little on the large side 😬
Cheers,
Matt

Hey @mattyc,

It is still available but was thinking about giving it another shot myself.

All the praise people give Waterford is founded on solid ground. The proof is really in the riding and this frame set is so fun to ride.

What do you want to know?

@paon have you decided to keep?

Keep coming back to this and considering making an offer, but not sure I could make it fit. Do you know the BB to saddle height in the images on the first page?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Waterford-R33-Road-Cycle-S3-Steel-Frame-with-Alpha-Q-Carbon-Forks-56-cm/193450789667

That is a different frame isn't it?

https://www.lfgss.com/conversations/347010/#comment15260777

@t-v yeah different frame...

so it is, sorry.,

It is still available, feel free to make an offer @t-v. My saddle height is 777, probably close to the max you want to run.