EU referendum, brexit and the aftermath

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  • You don't seem to have the confidence to stand up for your opinions. That's fine. It just happens that I think small minded patriotism is a sign of intellectual weakness and I'm happy to call that out when I encounter it.

    I wouldn't bother to defend nationalism, the core support seems to be petty patriotism and beliefs held by people without much experience of the wider world. It's a dog whistle for idiots.

  • I should point out, again, that nationalism has not always been associated with jingoism. It once represented a progressive counterforce to autocratic rule by a colonising, oppressive, or backward authority.

    Now, it doesn't so much.

  • I actually don't have many strongly held opinions, but I don't follow where you get this from:

    You don't seem to have the confidence to stand up for your opinions.

    I don't think I'd be posting in this thread at all if I didn't have enough confidence.

    Is all patriotism petty? Is there any other kind of nationalism except that which asserts superiority over foreigners?

  • I think so. I don't feel at all English despite being born and living here all my life.

    To me England means countryside, driving to the pub (and presumably driving home half drunk), a suspicion of 'people not from round here' etc. I don't identify with any of that.

    When there are forms that ask if I am English/Scottish/Welsh/other I tick other and write in Londoner. I expect someone who identifies as Scottish might do something similar if the form had an option for British/other.

    For what it's worth, which I'm aware is little, I don't even identify England as a nation. To be a nation you need international recognition with things like UN seats and embassies. We should have a UK national football team for all events, not just the Olympics.

    (And our football leagues should be local so supporters can go to all the home and away games with a smaller carbon footprint)

  • Or everyone is stuck with the Tories because the provincials keep voting for them

    FTFY

  • Groundhog Day
    Another deadline ignored.
    Talks to continue.

    But still the message for businesses and people to "Get ready".

    Ready for what, you numpty fuckers?

    At this rate, they'll announce no deal on Boxing Day with 5 days til it all happens.

    Who am I kidding? Of course it will be a confirmation of No Deal on the 31st December, alongside the launch of £100m ad campaign exhorting us to "Make preparations in time".

  • Thanks that was interesting.
    I love London and don't really see myself leaving, and one of the things I love about it is how easy it is to feel adopted as a Londoner. But I don't think I'd write it on a form. Maybe in time.

  • Will be a lot of grumpy MP's if they have to schlep back to Westminster over Christmas to vote through either the emergency legislation or the new deal

  • I still don't see the benefits of lower UK standards for the UK.

    How can going from a high quality goods exporter to a low quality one help when there is already so much competition in that market worldwide?

    Sounds like an excuse to get a trade deal to dump low grade shite in the UK...and firms be damned.

    (At least we escape that in NI with our awful loss of "sovereignty" with the NI protocol)

  • Remove maternity pay, make parents take time off unpaid - cheaper for companies.

    Likewise holiday entitlement, sick-leave, pensions.

    Remove welfare provisions - you can lower corporation tax - cheaper for companies.

    The government want to get to an even more extreme version of the US system, where the unemployed will (literally) be starved into working in the fields during summer, gutting fish in the winter etc rather than be paid by the state.

    Have a look at the IEA suggestions for Brexit Britain - it's goal is to reduce the state to a stub, with everything run by private companies for profit, with close to zero regulation of anything.

  • The government

    These days, it seems like most western countries have an administration more than a government. Billionaires, the local royals and stockholders call the important shots, then the administration enacts whatever ‘governance’ they decide on to get the rest of us in line so they can administrate our labour and energy. They govern our lives in detail, but let the string-pullers do whatever they want.

    We’re the ‘workforce’, not the ‘citizenry’.

  • We’re the ‘workforce’, not the ‘citizenry’.

    We were the government’s ‘subjects’ according to Rees Mogg the other day, the jumped-up cunt...

  • At this rate, they'll announce no deal on New Year's Eve with 1 day til it all happens.

    FTFY

  • FTFY

    Read the rest of my comment....

  • Yep. Reading fail. NYE it is though.

  • I agree but people just don't see it?

    It's all "will be fine" or "sovereignty!!!"

    Like the tale of the frog being slowly boiled alive.

    It has to go badly wrong first. But since the eu doesn't need civil war on their doorstep it won't there are already exceptions for medication, Ireland won't let GB starve.

    Only way I can see this stopped is the USA deal being so delayed by that time the proverbial hits the fan so much closer relationships with the EU are negotiated.

    I'm really on the fence on Starmer but he seems to convince Tory swing voters. Can that deal be delayed 4 years with labour winning?

    Well know emmm not soon.

  • Not sure it was always otherwise, wars or work. With periods of improvement. NHS, unions, etc...

    It certainly has become much more extreme since the rot set in with neoliberalism and global money doing whatever.

  • For what it's worth, which I'm aware is little, I don't even identify England as a nation. To be a nation you need international recognition with things like UN seats and embassies. We should have a UK national football team for all events, not just the Olympics.

    Do you identify Catalunya as a nation? Or Scotland?

  • I could have phrased that better. I see this quite a bit with friends who were not born here, they are less likely to take the fight to the idiots. I understand why. There's so little intelligence to go around in a massive part of the UK population, it really helps if you've grown up here because the idiots don't get to tell you that you don't belong enough to have a low opinion of England.

    I don't mean to single you out for criticism, it just seemed that you are being thoughtful respecting people you disagree with. That's not my approach, not for age or experience or illness.

    Anyone who thinks that England is better in any way than the rest of the world needs to be told to pipe down. Not in the Olympics or engineering or language or philosophy or fighting or any other matter are we a universally superior country. So those opinions can get in the sea. Nationalism and a national identity is no use to make a success out of a country so it's not much use to me.

    Yes, it was used to dismantle colonialism but it wasn't the successful part of it, countries just had to work to shape the economic and cultural life of the country and that had everything to do with recognising and building bridges with other nations, collaborating through trade, science and culture.

    I was just suggesting that you have not yet reached the point where you are confident enough to tell English idiots that to their face based on what you had said about respecting different opinions.

  • Has this been resolved yet?

  • Nationalism and a national identity is no use to make a success out of a country so it's not much use to me.

    Interesting. Can I ask how you’ve come to this conclusion? Larger nations like the US, Mexico and Brazil seem to rely on a shared national identity for their development, which is contrary to your theory. I’m interested in learning more about post-national options though.

  • yes, everyone's made up and laughing about it all now, thinking what a pickle we nearly got ourselves in. all's well that ends well though thank god.

  • Has this been resolved yet?

    Deadline extended yet again. Real negotiating begins now.

  • We're peasants.

  • A problem with nationalism in England is perhaps that it looks back to the past rather than to the future - it's based on out-dated and fantastical ideas of exceptionalism and has become a refuge for those that dislike the modern, global world.

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EU referendum, brexit and the aftermath

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