EU referendum, brexit and the aftermath

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  • One thing I will say for Corbyn is that his framing of Lib Dems as the problem to forming a GNU has been extraordinarily effective, despite it not being true.

    The Lib Dem’s have been an obstacle to a soft Brexit consistently. They voted against backing a custom union (lost by one vote), they stood in EU elections promising remain (a referendum asking; revoke, extension, no deal - which ... let’s be honest ... is a stitch-up to ensure remain).

    They’re doing a great job of ensuring leaving with no deal.

  • Perhaps labour should counter-offer Swinson:

    Harriet Harman to form a GNU on the condition Chukka becomes Lib Dem leader.

    ;-)

  • I suspect Chukka is a bit nervous about the prospect of a general election, so may not want to do anything to encourage one.

  • I blame the lib Dems for even entering into a coalition with the Tories in the first place in legitimising and facilitating policies that didn't have a strong enough mandate and were instrumental in empowering the disastrous rise of May, BoJo and Gove to begin with.

    Would have been far more natural and effective an alliance with Labour but for Cleggs sudden crisis of democratic duty..

    Anyway. qué Sera. We are where we are. Swinson was my mum's constituency MP and is every bit as fucking awful as she comes across in the media-the fact that she actually lives in Hertfordshire is not lost on the electorate up here either.

  • The Lib Dem’s have been an obstacle to a soft Brexit consistently. They voted against backing a custom union (lost by one vote), they stood in EU elections promising remain (a referendum asking; revoke, extension, no deal - which ... let’s be honest ... is a stitch-up to ensure remain).

    They’re doing a great job of ensuring leaving with no deal.

    Well, they've been pro-remain, which is at least a consistent position. And while I'm not saying they've made no mistakes, when you compare it to the mistakes Labour have made around Brexit they're small fry. But factually I accept everything you're saying, except to say that your conclusion is incomplete. If Lib Dems are ensuring we leave with No Deal, Labour as the official opposition are triply damned.

  • Except Labour have offered a workable and very straight forward way of avoiding no deal. It may be true that some people would rather have no deal than accept that (Tories and some libdems), but that cannot be pinned on Labour. It is up to those people to explain why the impending shit show which may follow is a better outcome than Corbyn as leader for a short period of time.

    I do think someone will crack here, ultimately. And am really not bothered by who it is. However, instead of trying to pick fights with Labour constantly, it seems to me trying to work together with the party at this point would be more productive. If, as many predict, it becomes impossible for Corbyn to achieve a majority, then that goodwill would likely have gone a lot further to finding a solution than what's happening now.

  • I think there's quite a few people worried about this now that they won't win votes based on being the remain option, hence trying to make it seem like Corbyn is pro brexit, when he's obviously not.

  • We’re here, many years after the referendum and it seems that Corbyn (not Labour) was right. Staying in the EU is not a sensible objective.

  • Ah, it’s fake news?

    Part of the contention is that it is a lack of news. That anything positive Corbyn does is little reported. That he is then reported as doing nothing and thus letting people down, that would be fake news.

  • Because leaving is looking awesome right now?

  • Since the vote to leave... leaving in the least damaging way possible was always the best case scenario. Even if you’re a devout europhile, just being realistic, giving that ground ... buys you political capital.

    MPs didn’t go that route.

  • Except Labour have offered a workable and very straight forward way of avoiding no deal. It may be true that some people would rather have no deal than accept that (Tories and some libdems), but that cannot be pinned on Labour. It is up to those people to explain why the impending shit show which may follow is a better outcome than Corbyn as leader for a short period of time.

    I do think someone will crack here, ultimately. And am really not bothered by who it is. However, instead of trying to pick fights with Labour constantly, it seems to me trying to work together with the party at this point would be more productive. If, as many predict, it becomes impossible for Corbyn to achieve a majority, then that goodwill would likely have gone a lot further to finding a solution than what's happening now.

    It's already impossible for Corbyn to achieve a majority. The 8 Tories and the 8 Labour MPs who've said they'd never vote for Corbyn under any circumstances puts it beyond all reach.

    What you call 'picking fights' with Labour is really just being able to count.

    And I'd have a lot more faith in Corbyn's dedication to no deal if he didn't manage to checks notes aah yes 1) become PM and 2) call the GE he's been blathering on about as a result of his plan.

    If he were serious about this, his caretaker government would either revoke or revoke before GE, and he wouldn't insist on being leader of it.

    At this point I don't give a fuck. I'm glad he's doing more than he was - credit where it's due - but that doesn't make up for the last three years of dithering.

  • @Dammit We’ll now crash out with a popularist in charge, surrounded by right wing ideologues.

    All predictable.

  • Since the vote to leave... leaving in the least damaging way possible was always the best case scenario. Even if you’re a devout europhile, just being realistic, giving that ground ... buys you political capital.

    MPs didn’t go that route.

    MPs didn't really have that option. As soon as May started blathering on about end to FOM and leaving the CU and SM, the overton window shifted and a compromise Brexit was out of the window. The ERG won't even vote for the WA if the backstop is removed!

  • Theresa May’s deal was the compromise.

    You’re going to have Priti Patel in charge of a back-of-an-envelope immigration ‘policy’. That’s not an improvement, that’s a fucking disaster.

    Similar is happening in Italy. You have to listen to the people and quell their fears.

  • ^^^^He still gets first dibs but has to wait for parliament to get back off their jollies right? He can then look to others if he can't get it done. Who are these 16 MPs who've said they'd never vote for Corbyn? Did they say that with this situation in mind? Have they been given the opportunity to change their minds? Are there definitely not enough rebels in the tories to make up the numbers if everyone else except the 8 insurmountable Labour MPs, including libdems get behind him? I reckon after that, if the answer is still no, then he'll likely let someone else do it if they can get a yes.

  • It's already impossible for Corbyn to achieve a majority. The 8 Tories and the 8 Labour MPs who've said they'd never vote for Corbyn under any circumstances puts it beyond all reach.

    1) Numbers change when votes happen. 2) I've not seen any reports of any MP having enough votes to lead a caretaker government. 3) It's up to those who opposed Corbyn's plan to explain why no-deal Brexit is better than Corbyn. Why are you not questioning them?

    What you call 'picking fights' with Labour is really just being able to count.

    Is lying in a tweet "counting"?

    And I'd have a lot more faith in Corbyn's dedication to no deal if he didn't manage to checks notes aah yes 1) become PM and 2) call the GE he's been blathering on about as a result of his plan.

    1 is irrelevant. That's just the nature of the beast. 2, I've no idea what your issue is here, but I think it's:

    If he were serious about this, his caretaker government would either revoke or revoke before GE, and he wouldn't insist on being leader of it.

    You think revocation of article 50 without a referendum, GE, or more pressing cliff-edge scenario, is a serious option? We all know the referendum was advisory, but that does not change the reality of there having been a referendum. Simply ignoring it seems a bit imprudent to me given the current state of illiberal politics.

    At this point I don't give a fuck. I'm glad he's doing more than he was - credit where it's due - but that doesn't make up for the last three years of dithering.

    If only Tony Blair/Gordon Brown/Chuka Umunna/David Miliband/etc. was leader of the Labour party while in opposition. Any one of them would have revoked article 50 years ago.

    It's getting a bit #fbpe in here.

  • It's getting a bit #fbpe in here.

    Weird, I was about to say it's getting a bit magic grandpa.

  • Tinted glass is tinted on both sides.

  • ^^ And you did. How clever.

    I'll say it again, I'm not particularly bothered about who would lead a unity government. What I am bothered about is the weird rationalizing taking place to turn Corbyn into the boogeyman while both those opposing him despite agreeing with his plan, and the real fucknuts in government, are being given a pass. It would be much better for everyone if those opposed to the current Brexit scenario were working together. But of course, it's Corbyn's fault that they are not. I'm just unable to see it because I love him so much.

    Peas.

  • I feel very similar to this.

  • Mainly in my undying love of Corbyn.

  • Isn't it just indicative of the desire for change everyone wants?
    I don't know what good changing the figure heads in this play would do, it's been decided what is happening by our lizard overlords.

  • I’m not sure what the point that you are making is?

  • The rulebook says that when a vote of no confidence happens queenie turns to the leader of the opposition to see if they can form a government.

    This is untrue. If Johnson loses a vote of no confidence he has two weeks to shore up support, then the default is a general election but he has to go to the Queen to trigger it, not the other way round. It's a real prospect right now that if he does lose a vote of no confidence he may hang on in long enough to ensure Brexit goes through without a deal before an election, citing public interest, the will of the people etc.

    There's a degree of constitutional debate about this precisely because there is no rulebook: we have an unwritten constitution.

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EU referendum, brexit and the aftermath

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