EU referendum, brexit and the aftermath

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  • And also (especially for any A level Politics students reading - this is for Paper 1 as well) that attempted reforms to improve participation, such as e-petitions prompting Westminster Hall debates, are ineffective because they do not lead to any meaningful outcomes and the government does not have to listen to the result.

    If only they could be that cavalier about advisory referendums.

  • True, they're not, but realistically Umunna has significant influence over the votes of a dozen MPs. It's hardly surprising that they're involved with everything being so close.

    He could have endured the meeting, come out and released a statement that he disagreed with him being there. Instead, whilst May is busy fucking up he once again ensured that there'd be a load of negative headlines about him rather than capitalising on it.

  • Imagine this lot in charge of a conflict. A real one.
    Like the beloved ww2.

  • So what you’re saying is that some politicians lied? Best cancel ... everything.

    Patronising af.

    I think honesty from politicians is something that should be demanded by an electorate as we end up with these situations as result. I'm not sure how you find anything I am saying as patronising as I don't intend to cause offence. I am sensitive to the fact that a slim majority voted to Leave and that parliament invoked A50. However, ultimately we rely upon the political leaders to make decisions in the best interest of the whole nation.

    The concern I have is that what was propogated as fact, anticipated as likely, or assumed to be a given has all turned out to be something else, and left a situation in which the govt is trapped between a disgruntled part of the electorate who demand change, but without a full understanding of what that means, and a potentially calamitous situation that would be irresponsible to enter.

    Leave has never had a solid plan for addressing the core problems faced by the nation, and even demonstrates a possible lack of awareness of them, and all 'ideas' bandied around have been ill-conceived sound-bytes in response to emerging events (we could be like singapore, norway, australia or a military power etc) rather than any thoroughly thought through, structured and clearly communicated credible plans.

    The absence of any plan whatsoever, irrespective of outcome, is a fundamental problem, and until one exists, then worsening a situation and vastly increasing uncertainty is grossly irresponsible and it would be in everyone's interests to first look at the root problems and plan on how to address those and restructure.

    (And yes, the clock has run down).

  • If there is any take-away from this entire shit show it’s that referendums are bullshit and direct democracy doesn’t work.

    Referendum's are dangerous. The advisory nature should be clearly communicated. And it would have been sensible to have thresholds for margin/ turnout to prevent such bitter division on a close call.

    The problem with democracy seems to be in its implementation. Unfortunately, every system fails when it suffers from the corruption of the people and institutions on which it relies, however well conceived. I wouldn't give up on democracy, but there is an overhaul required for it to begin functioning properly and perhaps the current shitshow will eventually lead to that.

  • Keep obfuscating. Keep patronising. Keep misjudging motivations. That’ll win hearts and heal division.

    You’re mistaken on the constitutional role of parliament. I may be wrong but ... isn’t it’s main purpose to represent the people? Primarily when amending law and probing government? They haven’t historically taken the role of leadership. So for them to amend the advice of ‘the people’ to something more compatible with free-movement-of-labour / un-checked capitalism because ... er ... cash is fucking outrageous.

    Your argument just needs skewering because it’s based on such a subjective view. I’m a remainer but feel some duty to let bubble-dwellers like you know how these opinions will be received outside of London and/or wealthy towns/cities.

  • Def not me!

    Fraid so.

    "A battle for souls" hahahhahabaha.

    What a load of fuzzy thinking twaddle. Honestly. Religion is so fatuous; it makes Brexit debate look enlightened.

  • It is. But we rely upon the elected representatives to familiarise themselves with the detail of the problems and there should be an effective communication back to their electorate so that they can make better informed decisions based upon a credible processing and evaluation of the issues at hand.

    The average geyser is not going to be able to get his head round all of the issues and complexities of many things, and why should he ? Instead, in a properly functioning democracy, the representative should be able to provide an honest and accurate evaluation which the electorate can trust and vote accordingly. One problem we have is the emotive response on which votes are based as result of either falsehoods, misrepresentations, narrowing of subject matter, or biases in presentation from whoever controls different forms of media. We should be able to trust a representative to process an entirety and condense that to an honest, communicable appraisal that they can communicate to their electorate and to be able to trust that their decision in amending law and probing government is consistent with the best interest of their electorate in accordance with their >informed< wishes.

    I think there is a critical issue of trust.

  • Then why not trust May?

    ( this is too easy)

  • Your argument just needs skewering because it’s based on such a subjective view. I’m a remainer but feel some duty to let bubble-dwellers like you know how these opinions will be received outside of London and/or wealthy towns/cities.

    I'm not sure what's subjective about the swathe of announcements of disinvestment, capital flight and planned relocations for the last couple of months. That's pretty hard fact and the consequences of trying to function as a nation with a flailing democracy, lack of govt and lack of direction are pretty serious given the state of the nation.

    My concern is for those in marginalised areas and I spent 7y working exceptionally hard to develop one demonstrable way for redressing some of these problems if adopted on a larger scale. Unfortunately, I confronted the power of the vested interest in trying to perpetuate this mess that has caused the current problems and had my life destroyed as a result.

    Leave or Remain is not the problem. That is just the current situation.

  • you're not being patronised though frankly it wouldn't be inappropriate.

  • Not sure what you mean?

    I am being a bit patronising, and probably a bit of a cunt... amongst a handful of fellow bike dorks in conversation... not in the primary reasoning on a matter of fucking huge importance. So that’s a false equivalence right there.

  • Then why not trust May?

    This is too easy.

    If TM can get something through parliament that avoids the carnage then that is a better situation than crashing, but the root problems still remain and no-one has any plan to address them. So, the pissed off guys would get blue passports and still be pissed off.

    It is actually tragic that we hatchet our leadership rather than support them, but that is a function of the non-inclusive policies run for decades and the dysfunction in the system.

  • I'm not sure what's subjective about the swathe of announcements of disinvestment, capital flight and planned relocations for the last couple of months.

    The view that these factors are of concern above all else is subjective.

  • Yes. Mainly we are concerned about our personal situations, usually on a fairly short term horizon, and predominantly we view everything from an economic perspective. So, what happens to other people, particularly those who fall way outside of our personal venn diagram doesn't register, and we trust that somehow things will be taken care of, and if we have any empowerment, we get behind what's best for us. Unfortunately, this has resulted in the marginalisation of so many people. I don't think it would be fair to say that people don't care, but everyone feels disempowered and is under varying degrees of pressure in their own lives to just exist, that things perpetuate and get forced to greater extremes.

    The arguments for Brexit have been very much centred around it being great for business, a huge opportunity to attract investment etc which have now been refuted by fact. The concern is that the consequence of proceeding when what was assumed or hoped to be the case, is not, and it becomes a very fragile situation which does affect those who have hoped that Brexit will change their situation for the better. I don't know where you would rank things in hierarchy, that would be subjective, but what other concerns are there - immigration, passports, EU laws etc - for many people, it will be the economic impact and opportunity, or lack thereof, that is, or becomes, the biggest concern I would suggest.

  • You'll find out they are the main factors of concern for 95% of the people as soon as shit actually hits the fan. It's easy to grandstand about how you're willing to take an economic hit as long as it hasn't hit you. What people actually think about that becomes apparent every time Greggs threatens to raise the price of sausage rolls by 5p.

  • EU leaders agree to delay Brexit until May 22, if Theresa May's third attempt to pass her Withdrawal Agreement through parliament is successful, according to a draft statement.

  • You'll find out they are the main factors of concern for 95% of the people as soon as shit actually hits the fan. It's easy to grandstand about how you're willing to take an economic hit as long as it hasn't hit you. What people actually think about that becomes apparent every time Greggs threatens to raise the price of sausage rolls by 5p.

    Jesus (sry welpeur) more explaining of how the working class will feel any day now ... and I thought I was sounding like a cunt.

  • People are failing to consider the impact on everyone else, which is an angry reaction to the fact that many of them feel that they have been mistreated or failed. There have been various reports recently on the global effect of Brexit on employment in far flung, dirt poor countries. Closer to home, a lady at Dublin City University just released a report of the effect of no-deal on employment in Ireland:

    "impact of WTO tariffs on primary and manufacturing (goods producing) employment across Irish counties. Highest impact is in Monaghan -9.2%, driven by the fact that 21% of employment there is in Agri-Food"

    These are real people elsewhere who will be losing jobs, in addition to all the UK job losses and the potential unleashing of a negative economic spiral.

  • Yes. Change is detrimental to business unless planned for.

  • I didn't think that saying less well-off people mind the economy doing badly is revolutionary exactly.

    But you're the one who knows how 'the working class' is feeling, right? So explain it to us.

  • The most signed petition was ahead of the referendum, attracted 4,150,262 signatures and stated:

    "We the undersigned call upon HM Government to implement a rule that if the remain or leave vote is less than 60% based a turnout less than 75% there should be another referendum."

    The government overrode it. Hence current shitshow prevails and doesn't bode well for the petition to be heeded.

    Not quite right I think. That petition was started before the referendum by a leaver, fearing losing and wanting the chance to have another say. It was almost unsigned until after the referendum, when it was signed on mass by remainers cross that they'd lost....the government had to ignore it because by then the horse had bolted.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06­/28/petition-for-second-eu-referendum-hi­ts-4-million-as-hundreds-att/

  • But it's a very convenient excuse for walking out of a negotiation that you actually want to fail, especially as the SNP, PC, and TIG want a people's vote and you very much do not.

    Exactly right.

  • Lol. Fuck off you disingenuous prick.

  • Thanks. That makes sense.

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EU referendum, brexit and the aftermath

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