EU referendum, brexit and the aftermath

It appears that brexitters necessarily suffer from a political version of alzheimers. No matter what previous proclamation is contradicted by events, the 'project' is still 100% on course for a successful* ending.
(* 'success' parameters yet to be determined).

Remember- we don't want to have to cut Europe off from our lucrative markets as we're reasonable people. But push us too far and we'll have no choice!

Everyone knows that over 50% of EU trade, and a huge percentage of EU GDP comes from trade with the UK, they'd be fools to push us too far.

So, getting back to vacuum cleaners

http://www.coppolacomment.com/2017/11/the-amazing-conversion-of-sir-james.html

What a knob. I feel like some people suffer from what seems to me like a crippling lack of imagination. You've got so much money that you could pursue whatever you want to free of any financial constraints but what you really want is to pick petty fights with govts over vacuum cleaners to save a few percent of your fortune...

One of the many ironies of this is that after all the belly aching about the big meanies in the European courts he ended up winning his case about testing when it got to the ECJ
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39882674

I just feel quite sad about the EMA and EBA moving on. The long road to insignificance continues.

If those EU agencies were to remain in a barely-regulated, low wage, no workers rights sort of country, they'd be no better than James Dyson.

Given the Ireland and Northern Ireland issue is so central, it makes Sinn fein's absence even stranger to me, I was so surprised that in the somewhat unprecedented time they still abstained.
Anyone with any insight as to how their abstaining is being received in NI?

I agree they need to go, how can they be based outside of the EU? It's the reminder of where we are going that makes me sad

Did you see that Barnier started his recent talk with a British Gov slide showing that the only way for the UK to be relevant was to be a part of the EU? Top trolling.

I think we probably need a bit of a shock in some ways- the Tories need to lose their mythological status as "good for the economy" and be banished from Government for the next ten years or so, and we'll likely re-enter the EU but full Schengen, full Euro etc, so Dov et al have probably dramatically increased our forfeiture of sovereignty (ultimately).

Issue is that this will cause massive harm to the vulnerable, as ever these things do.

That depends on who you ask.

Some of their member base is very happy with this, some of their voter base also, some people don't particularly care.

They do not sit in Westminster, as the UK is seen as an "occupying force" though this has not stopped past SF politicians taking their seat. But as they run on this abstentionist platform, it may still cause them too much harm to change it now.

There was a discussion around this on a local forum, and I guess ultimately they will do what serves their party. So unless there's a big backlash and campaign to change it, it may stay that way, but I don't see a big campaign atm.

On one hand I get it with the history etc but at the same time they've thankfully decided democracy is the path yet aren't engaging.
Although maybe prudent not to get involved in this particular shit show!

I've not read this yet, but I really respect Richard Tuck as a scholar, so am quite keen to get into it when I have some free time. Thought I'd share it here.

https://thecurrentmoment.files.wordpress.com/2017/11/brexit-proposal-20-nov-final.pdf

As two people who supported Brexit and have always sought to make
their reasons for doing so as open to public discussion as possible, we feel
that it has become urgent to revisit some of the basic questions around
Brexit. In this short pamphlet, we restate clearly what Brexit represents and
why it is so important. We explain why its implementation is proving so
difficult and we lay out a vision for a post-Brexit UK that can serve as a
guide for the negotiations as they proceed into the most critical phase yet.

We decided to publish this work ourselves rather than in association
with a think tank or with a political party. We both identify with the
political tradition of the Left but, as it will become clear, our views differ
markedly with what currently constitutes official British Labour Party
policy on Brexit. Our aim is to contribute to the public debate on Brexit
and, if possible, to move us beyond the current impasse.

Christopher Bickerton, Cambridge, UK
Richard Tuck, Cambridge, USA
November, 2017

//edit//

I've read this now, and it is quite good. I can think of three issues:

1) it over intellectualizes the intent behind the vote to leave. I.e., even if it is correct on the importance of sovereignty (and I think it may be), any gains made are steeped in natavism. This can't be ignored.
2) it fails to engage fully with the Irish question.
3) it does not engage with the EU reformation question. This is probably because that may now be an exercise in counterfactual history, rather than a real problem worth dealing with. But it does make their position as historic "leftist Brexters" something worth interrogating.

I should also note that I find the proposals on the whole a bit thin. But that's because the good gained by Brexit (in their opinion) is what's key. Brexit itself is not seen as something which will provide material goods equivalent to, or beyond that of, membership.

Arf. Just saw somebody in a Brexit thread on twitter barking about the fact that millenials need to HTFU and stop buying coffees and "leased BMWs" because when he was a kid, in 1971, he managed to buy a house when he was only earning £125pw.

He really didn't like it when somebody pointed out that he was earning £97k per year in today's money, when adjusted for inflation.

He developed these arguments further in a recent Policy Exchange lecture, entitled ‘Brexit: A Prize in Reach for the Left’. I read that, and it was in my view total waffle.

A skimread of this doesn't convince me, they are not addressing the issues surrounding globalization which leave the EU just won't fix. I wish I had an easy fix, but I don't.

I had a look at 2, I have to agree with you there, they don't offer anything bar "it'll be fine..."

3) it's nice they want to offer british citizenship, but some of us EU ones cannot hold dual citizenship...this will cause all sorts of problems.

Say, I want to move back to The Netherlands. I am not a Dutch citizen anymore, now I fall under Dutch 3rd country immigration laws as the UK left the EU. These laws, like in the UK, are not nice.
So, nice gesture, but it won't work.

Maths, it's hard ;)

How can you easily work out inflation in that context? Is there an algorithm or a calculator? I hear this argument all the time and I know it's wrong but all I can counter it with is the 'average deposit to average house price' ratio change which isn't exactly the sort of thing that makes a person question their own idiocy.

EDIT: tricked into starting a new page! Now I look mental

EDIT: tricked into starting a new page! Now I look mental

Nope, you just look like you are carrying on the conversation. Especially since you used the reply button. Most of us are able to navigate the site.

.

1 Attachment

Is there a way to see all replies as a contiguous conversation like that? (Am I missing an obvious button somewhere...)

My point is that we are not all on the same page so the 'new page fail' idea doesn't apply to everyone.

if you click on the comment number it should give you the conversation

https://www.lfgss.com/comments/13972187/

He developed these arguments further in a recent Policy Exchange lecture ...

No, this paper is a further development of that lecture. It was released two days ago. You may be referencing the author page of the report (which you seem to be quoting). The "further" here refers to the piece in Dissent magazine.

A skimread of this doesn't convince me

Maybe try more than skimming. It may still not convince you (it doesn't convince me), but your position will at least be based on a more than partial understandings.

On citizenship - that's something which sucks, and which the authors acknowledge. They also note that one potential solution is bilateral negotiations, as the UK has no unilateral power in this case.

Whoa... Game changer! Thanks :)