Why you would not consider cycle training?

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  • "I don't need training I know how to ride a bike"
    Says bloke

    This is a common reaction from people, (mainly men) when it is
    suggested that they get some cycle training. It has always been a
    struggle to explain to people how they would benefit (and I suspect
    were it not for wishing to become an instructor many cycle trainers would have
    said the same thing)

    This response may be explained by the Dunning Kruger effect (
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%­80%93Kruger_effect )

    "a cognitive bias wherein unskilled individuals suffer from illusory
    superiority, mistakenly assessing their ability to be much higher than
    is accurate. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of
    the unskilled to recognize their ineptitude"

    Which links to the 4 (actually 5) stages of competence:
    (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages­_of_competence)

    1. Unconscious incompetence
      The individual does not understand or know how to do
      something and does not necessarily recognize the deficit. They may
      deny the usefulness of the skill. The individual must recognize their
      own incompetence, and the value of the new skill, before moving on to
      the next stage.[2] The length of time an individual spends in this
      stage depends on the strength of the stimulus to learn.[3]

    2. Conscious incompetence
      Though the individual does not understand or know how to do
      something, he or she does recognize the deficit, as well as the value
      of a new skill in addressing the deficit. The making of mistakes can
      be integral to the learning process at this stage.[4]

    3. Conscious competence
      The individual understands or knows how to do something.
      However, demonstrating the skill or knowledge requires concentration.
      It may be broken down into steps, and there is heavy conscious
      involvement in executing the new skill.[3]

    4. Unconscious competence
      The individual has had so much practice with a skill that it
      has become "second nature" and can be performed easily. As a result,
      the skill can be performed while executing another task. The
      individual may be able to teach it to others, depending upon how and
      when it was learned.

    5. (Enlightened competence -Teacher)
      The person has not only mastered the physical skill to a highly
      efficient and accurate level which does not anymore require of him
      conscious, deliberate and careful execution of the skill but instead
      done instinctively and reflexively, requiring minimum efforts with
      maximum quality output, and is able to understand the very dynamics
      and explanation of his own physical skills. In other words, he
      comprehends fully and accurately the what, when, how and why of his
      own skill and possibly those of others on the same skill he has. In
      addition to this, he is able to transcend and reflect on the physical
      skill itself and be able to improve on how it is acquired and learned
      at even greater efficiency with lower energy investment. Having fully
      understood all necessary steps and components of the skill to be
      learned and the manner how they are dynamically integrated to produce
      the desired level of overall competence, he is thereby able to teach
      the skill to others in a manner that is effective and expedient."

    So have you considered cycle training?
    If not, why not?

  • ^TL:DR?
    In short:
    You will not consider (free) cycle training because you're stupid...so stupid you don't even know it :)

    [Edit] V2 You will not consider (free) cycle training because you're ignorant...so ignorant you don't even know it :)

  • So have you considered cycle training?
    If not, why not?

    I have, but there are no instructors local to me.

    I did ask in one of the cycle training threads, but no-one got back to me...

  • I don't think that's the whole story behind people's refusal to consider training. Obviously, it can be a key factor, but in many cases the refusal will be caused, simply, by wounded pride. In my experience, most people are willing to learn new things, within reasonable limits, but when it touches on an area in which they feel pride, and cycling skills are, of course, a prime example of this, they're much more likely to refuse.

    One might argue that misplaced pride is just another aspect of an inaccurate self-image, and hence a symptom of ignorance, but pride is not incompatible with knowledge. (Pride is not vanity.) Someone might know that they might still have something to learn, but still take pride in their level of achievement, and the trigger for refusal could be, simply, that the person proposing cycle training (or whatever else) might inadvertently have wounded their pride. They might still, mistakenly, believe that there is no urgency for them to consider improving their skills (perhaps they have other priorities), but the crucial cause of their refusal might not be ignorance of their lack of ability.

    I also find it silly to define an 'effect' here and index it to the names of some recent researchers. The locus classicus of thought about ignorance and knowledge in dialogue, is, of course, in Plato's dialogues, in which success or failure of Socrates' philosophical interaction with his interlocutors depends very much on their knowledge-states and pre-existing beliefs, as well as the degree of openness that they have (and, importantly, Plato shows Socrates as far from blameless in numerous dialogues--some readers become cheerleaders for Socrates and consider his interlocutors totally stupid, which couldn't be further from the truth). Anyone who's had in-depth conversations about the desirability or not of cycle training with people will recognise a lot of the situations shown in Plato's work. These things are timeless.

    As a footnote, it is rather important to note, that ignorance and stupidity are completely different things, so the tl;dr version falls a bit flat, with or without a smiley. :)

    Did you hit on it because mellion linked to it in the Conspiracy Theories thread?

  • Who is cycle training aimed at? I consider myself a 4th Dan cyclist going on the ratings system above. And once I reach a state of 'Enlightened Competence' nirvana should I teach others the way?

    I'm not local to London, is nirvana achievable through homeopathy?

  • (Yes the Conspiracy, the Dunning Kruger ref.)

    While I agree with some of what you say Oliver, and accept the last point re the tldr [See edit on op], which I suppose was meant to provoke a response, or an explanation of why they have not trained in order to improve riding if that's so important to them.

    There will be people who who refuse because of pride, and it's that pride, in their average cycling skills, which prevents them from accepting that they are average skills.

    I also think that to some extent many people assess their skills in bike handling as good which is probably true for many on-here. People may be used to being cut up in traffic, or squeezed drivers passing close, or annoyed at pedestrians stepping out in front of them and think that's unavoidable and normal because of "the idiots out there", rather than thinking what could they have done differently.

    As you know from undergoing training and perhaps reading Franklin etc. is that much of the training is counter intuitive and counter-car [driver] is king culture, which makes it more likely for people not to know (or care) about what they don't know.

    And of course, George Kelly, (who brings Plato to Constructivist Psychology where he describes a person as a scientist experimenting with their constructs , some open to change some less so)), says, everyone construes the world differently based on "their knowledge-states and pre-existing beliefs, as well as the degree of openness that they have". So my generalisation my be unfair to some but not for many others.

  • Come to London for some training?

  • Will we all meet at Sible Hedingham in July? There's a car park for basic control skills and local roads available, too. :)

  • There will be people who who refuse because of pride, and it's that pride, in their average cycling skills, which prevents them from accepting that they are average skills.

    As I implied, I wouldn't call that pride but vanity--ignorant pride. (I realise that historically pride often meant much the same as vanity, and pride can be used in a positive and a negative sense. As usual, traditional terminology is in turns ambiguous or unclear in other ways.)

    I also think that to some extent many people assess their skills in bike handling as good which is probably true for many on-here. People may be used to being cut up in traffic, or squeezed drivers passing close, or annoyed at pedestrians stepping out in front of them and think that's unavoidable and normal because of "the idiots out there", rather than thinking what could they have done differently.

    Yes, absolutely. Classic cases. I had the conversation about pedestrians with a female friend recently. She's a very good rider (which I explicitly acknowledged and praised) but complained loudly about pedestrians. When I suggested training, she said that she didn't need it because she did track training and had great bike-handling skills.

  • Finding time for a session

  • Whilst training a group of schoolchildren we watched a lady ride completely to the contrary of good cycling practice and it caused a driver to pull out on her from a side road. The kids had been commenting to me about how badly she was riding. She looked angrily at the driver but when one of the children suggested she needed cycle training we got the usual "oh but I have been riding all my life and it's just that the drivers are so bad." she had performed the full hat trick of fuck ups whilst approaching the side road on her left hand side - she had looked over her left shoulder, slowed to a crawl and dipped in. A clear case of unconscious incompetence and utter self denial when the kids explained how she could have done it any better.

  • Why would you not consider cycle training ?

    Because its only a bike - learnt when I was 7 years old - not thought of as a serious activity - hey for a bit of a laugh lets dig out a bike and do a charity ride ! - hey the sun is out might get the bike out and cycle to work this morning ! ....
    I get this car centric attitude a lot from work people and family who consider cycling as a dangerous thing to do but put down the consideration of the cycle training that would give them the confidence and ability to make their cycling enjoyable and less fearful .

    Yeah ignorant pride
    Bike = toy

  • ps

    my comments a tainted by the knowledge that some work colleagues* are planning a Top Gear 'challenge' trip around France next month - one of which* consistently derides cyclists and told me to "grow up and get a car" not long ago.
    so apologies for that

  • Also there are the kerb nerds who ride appallingly yet cycle training is not what they need, but segregated infrastructure is the answer.

    Or as drivers on CPC courses say at the beginning of the day "it's all common sense" yet when asked where cyclists should be on the road "the should be in cycle lanes" and yet when asked where cyclists should not be "on the left of my lorry at junctions".

    Cycling is so easy training is not required.

  • Oh - good topic btw
    a refreshing change from " my socks got wet this morning " 2/10

  • Well, one part that no one, me included, has an answer to is why men are far less likely to request training than women. It's also true that when they come for training men generally overstate their current ability and women understate it.

    The other thing that puts people off is the very name 'cycle training' which has led to some courses being called 'advanced urban cycling skills' or whatever.

    I suppose we are talking about people who know it exists as well - because so few people do which just might have an effect on uptake.

    On the forum it's also not entirely impossible that some of cycle training's most forthright advocates are, how can I put this politely, er, well, you know what I mean.

  • advanced urban cycling skills

    Sounds cool. Where can I do this?

    Marketing is everything (sadly). If someone refuses cycle training you just haven't explained it properly to them.

  • I think I could benefit.. no excuse reallly!
    Whether I get round to it is another thing..

  • On the forum it's also not entirely impossible that some of cycle training's most forthright advocates are, how can I put this politely, er, well, you know what I mean.

    Dear Mr Melling
    It has come to our attention that you have been assuming people know what's inside your head, perhaps due to it seeming perfectly obvious to you and therefore not worth stating.

    Arrogant males who assume their cycling is top notch superduper?
    or
    Really very well informed and actually top notch superduper cyclists?

    No, I don't know what you mean. Please say it for my thick-as-shit benefit.

  • @dancingjames is both, surely?

  • On the forum it's also not entirely impossible that some of cycle training's most forthright advocates are, how can I put this politely, er, well, you know what I mean.

    What skully said...

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Why you would not consider cycle training?

Posted by Avatar for skydancer @skydancer

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