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  • just arrived at this via twitter, any thoughts trainers?

    http://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.com­/2011/05/09/the-primary-position-putting­-uk-cyclists-between-a-rock-and-a-hard-p­lace/

    it was relayed from the cycling embassy of great britain, who seem to be a new group lobbying for more motor vehicle free cycling infrastructure. anyone familiar with them?

  • Just left a comment on that post....

    Yeah, there is a thread/meme around on the internet/blogs that includes but is not limited to ideas like:

    -Cycle groups have "failed" to bring about mass cycling. Only seperate infrastructure can do this.
    -Cycle training is like Helmet promotion in that it suggests thst cycling is not safe without training
    -"Vehicular Cyclists" are a cult like group that resist any and all attempts to introduse infrastructure on the dutch model
    -Cycle training ameloriates the conditions of on road riding and as such collaborates with the maintainance of the status quo with respect the preeminence of the car.

    For my self I will say that I became a cycle trainer as a response to my frustration with cycle campagining... The way I see it, we are just quietly helping those who wish to ride to do so as well as encouraging new generations. I only read Cyclecraft after about 30 years cycling in London and I could see, at once, the value of the advise therin.

  • just my two cents worth - the dutch model of (largely) separate infrastructure is not helpful for longer distances, or in my opinion, getting anywhere relatively quickly on a road or fixed bike. The cycle lanes are very bumpy ( brickwork laid over sand in most cases) designed for slow speed pottering on leafy back roads, all good if you're a leisure cyclist or simply popping to the shops, but for long distance commuting in a major city very unsuitable.

    When cycling in Holland anywhere outside of a town center I used the roads as much as possible, even though it is not allowed, because the cycle lanes were so unsuitable.

    Remember their largest city has a population the same as leeds, and is very dense (as is all of holland) I believe what London needs is more bicycle marking on actual roads, and increased awareness for all road users that we all have a right to use the streets.

  • got to educate drivers, we all share the roads, less emphasis on cyclists making space and being seen, and protecting themselves, more emphasis on drivers being aware of all road users, cyclists especially and being conscious of and conscientious around them.

  • as far as I know thats just a blog Andy, one persons view.
    keep up the good work taking the lane.

  • Jason, the CEoGB is more than a blog, and although new seems well organised and likely to grow, spreading similar views.

    From
    http://www.cycling-embassy.org.uk/node/1­

    We believe that current rates of cycling in this
    country are too low, that targets to increase
    them are miserably un-ambitious and that a
    decent rate of cycling should be nearer 30 or
    40% of all journeys
    We believe that this can only be achieved by
    the provision of dedicated safe cycle
    infrastructure, in line with the best practice
    found around the world.

    which infers that cycle training, road position, and promotion of soft measures have no place in the future of cycling.

    Does anyone fancy joining me on 21st May in MCR at their next meeting?

  • p.s. I dunno, maybe it isn't exclusive, but it doesn't appear to suggest complimenting what's here already, just building more cycle lanes.

    I'd like to learn more on 21st.

  • so it seems

    who is it then? head/ all the other cycling orgs have recognisable individuals whom some of us have met. Jim on old dutch??

    Cant come to conference but yes you should go.

    I agree with his first paragraph, but the second one is the sticking point in a country with a Victorian road infrastructure, engineers around the country are onside now, but the fact remains there isnt the room to build out lanes for riders.

    Weve been here before a hundred times.

    As long as the mantra from the top is:- individuals have the right to use private motor vehicles as much as they want to, and, we must keep the traffic moving
    then its good old England,
    no transport minister has got the front to start penalising personal car use,
    transforming short journeys into a healthy, free, alternative.

    let em sit in queues, its what they like to do.

    Enjoy the ride.

  • theres a link to LTP3S?

    theres more hot air written in those documents than there is over Australasia

  • yeah. there're some ideas there but it's very single issue (infrastructure). wonder if anyone from here was at LMNH for the first meeting?

    I always enjoy the ride :)

  • This is the blog of the Cycling Embassy's founder:

    http://lofidelitybicycleclub.wordpress.c­om/

  • whinging mainly, although Brighton have done an amazing job of wasting a huge amount of money. htfu.

  • The thing is.... I agree with some of the critique around what we teach. For instance, it all goes much better if you can go a little faster. Not everyone can/wants to. But I still think that our syllabus is the best advise we can give despite that sort of thing. A slow potterer will still have a better time following our advise then doing anything else. They will have an even better time if they can go faster though... ;-}

    While I am all for getting everyone to HTFU... I just know that not everyone will/can. I feel it is sadly true to say that cycle training is THE VERY LEAST that the powers that be can do. It is certain that we help people on an individual level though and I ,for one, am happy with that.

  • ^ on that point, I reckon the best cycling condition in traffic on current infrastructure is when the speed differential is zero. That's when I feel most comfortable.

    How can that be better achieved, other than reducing motor vehicle limits, whilst at the same time encouraging bike folks to speed up a bit?

  • Hard one! Some relevant thought from the op blogger.
    Seem to be getting a lot of abuse lately being in the primary.
    Just try to remember how shit one would feel if bullied into the gutter to then get doored or fucked somehow!

  • This:
    http://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.com­/2011/05/03/john-franklin-in-action/

    and the comments are a good example of some of the stuff that is around regarding "assertive cycling"

  • Just left a comment on that post....
    -Cycle groups have "failed" to bring about mass cycling. Only seperate infrastructure can do this.

    "Separate" infrastructure has not produced mass cycling anywhere. The North continental towns with freaky cycle modal shares had freaky modal shares prior to "separate" infrastructure. Introduction of "separate" infrastructure has not brought high cycling modal share to locations with a low modal share to start with.

    The autumn of the Bicycle Master Plan: after the plans, the
    products, Ton Welleman, Dutch Ministry of Transport, Velo-city
    conference Basle, 1995:

    Since 1990, the total length of cycle paths has increased to almost
    19,000 km, generally speaking double the length in 1980. (The
    Netherlands has around 108,000 km paved and asphalted roads,
    including 2200 km of expressways). Besides cycle paths, there were
    also investments in roundabouts, reconstructions of junctions and
    pedestrian/cyclist crossings, cycle tunnels and bridges and parking
    facilities for cyclists; totalling an estimated 1.5 billion
    guilders. The costs were split up into approximately fifty percent
    for the municipalities, 15% for the provinces and the remainder for
    the national government.

    Results: In 1994, the total distance cycled was 12.9 billion km,
    compared with 12.8 billion in 1990. (The number of km travel-led by
    car was 125 billion in 1990 and 129 billion in 1994). Consequently:
    Expansion and improvement of the infrastructure does not necessarily
    increase the use of bicycles.
    Another thing to note is that in the locations with high cycle modal share, the cycle traffic substitutes walking trips and short public transit trips. So it's highly unlikely that existence of "separate" facilities will get motorists out of their cars.

    -Cycle training is like Helmet promotion in that it suggests thst cycling is not safe without training.
    "Separate" infrastructure suggests that cycling is not safe without "separate" infrastucure.

    -"Vehicular Cyclists" are a cult like group that resist any and all attempts to introduse infrastructure on the dutch model
    Belief in cycle facilities is in fact very religion like and escapes all rational arguments of real world effects of so called facilities.

    -Cycle training ameloriates the conditions of on road riding and as such collaborates with the maintainance of the status quo with respect the preeminence of the car
    .
    Kicking cyclists out of the roadway into inferior facilities strengthens the preeminence of the car more than anything else.

    For my self I will say that I became a cycle trainer as a response to my frustration with cycle campagining... The way I see it, we are just quietly helping those who wish to ride to do so as well as encouraging new generations. I only read Cyclecraft after about 30 years cycling in London and I could see, at once, the value of the advise therin.
    Very true that explaining this to someone who hasn't walked the walk, ridden the snake, felt the force is utterly hopeless.

  • cycle training is THE VERY LEAST that the powers that be can do.

    Then your givumnet is the only in Europe that does the very least. Others do worse than the very least.

  • Segregated infrastructure argument is rearing its head again even amongst some unikely people within LCC and ctc. Shame really as neither organisation has ever been anti segregation but have engaged in infrastructure planning being invited to suggest to planners what works in each situation. This is better than dogma and is implemented on an ongoing basis, out of this trust has come the excellent permeable routes crossing hackney, now adapted by lambeth.

    Vehicular cycling whether proposed by forrester and american advocates in places like portland takes a fairly militant position equates cars and bike as equal vehicles carrying equal responsibility so even support bike licensing/tax. More reasonable uk has taken the 'risk management 'principles from forrester through cyclecraft and CTUK manual and has modified it, made it more british and positive and delivered through NS cycle training. This gives cyclists and drivers equal right in the road space in law yet does little to educate drivers as to this equality so even in the official literature and promotional material (like the recent bike ads by tfl) show riders riding on the edge of the road, even the police occasionally pull over a rider for 'being in the way' by riding primate

    The more people that ride assertively and on the major roads in manner that is measured (Not pussy, nor dick) the sooner the time will come when drivers become tamed. London is significantly progressing alomg that path with london drivers becoming more accepting of cyclists all around them. 20 mph and proper road calming also help riders to have the guts to move out of the (road) margins. There will still be idiots hooting and swearing and 'punishing' the cyclists with risky driving. We need to tell on them, get them in trouble until beeping a cyclist and tailgating the rider will become as unaccebtable as drink driving is now.

    Perhaps mass assertive/primary poistion cycling on all roads wth low speed limits across towns will encourage mass cycling and make it easier to do so and more effective than segregating drivers from cyclists

  • the police occasionally pull over a rider for 'being in the way' by riding primate

    Hey look a primate on a bike!

    @Chainwhip... I agree. Those bullet points are not my views. I was just pointing up some of the chat that I have seen online. Agree with your refutations.

    Going out now to "ride primate". Look out girls!

  • Could I just say that primary position is not the be all and end all. In fact, focussing on it here is something of a red herring IMO. The video this blogger took of getting pinched at a pinch point looks to have been taken from a helmet-mounted camera. So, I have to ask, why is he not **looking behind **when approaching a pinch point? That would surely help warn road users behind to slow down and give him a greater awareness of any hazard from the rear. There is not one backward glance in that video.

  • I always notice a primate looking at me

  • But you have to look to notice.

  • i feel sick

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Primary position

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