Cycling in car parks...where do we stand legally?

Why move somewhere else?

TD has proved itself to be self managing and not anti social, in fact it's creating something positive that the LA / CoL doesn't have to pay for. Move it somewhere else, and as Phil says, you're in danger of losing the point of it.

+1

Maybe look to get some funding for public liability insurance therefore be more legitimate?

Good luck with it. I hope you can stay there. I reckon lynx is right though, it's private property and therefore they owner can what the fcuk they like, surely?

If so, just move to some public property, and the problem is solved - such as BL basketball court.

yep i think people should definitely keep going at the moment but maybe you and Robin could be the recognised spokespeople so that one of the kids doesn't fuck it up by getting shirty, not that there are many people down there like that, it's just both of you are well-kempt and probably the antithesis of the punk-ass gobshites the suits have probably built up in their mind. Unless the security are new guys they will be on our side and have seen how trouble free it's been having us turn up every week; they're just following orders, probably with a heavy heart too.

@ swedeeee - the rooftop has worked so well in the last two years that people across town (and indeed Europe, at times) from all ends of the tricks scene have known they can roll up on any given Tuesday and people will be there. as you can probably gather from the visibility of the thread on here, the night ceased to be anything particularly to do with or at least in any way reliant on the forum long ago.

@lynx: the z boys didn't worry about funding for public liability insurance..

I hasn't been up there for a long time, but how loud is it when everyone is up there? usually the complaint tend to be noise (even if you can't hear shit from the streets, it's possible to hear from the building around the car park).

Good luck with it. I hope you can stay there. I reckon lynx is right though, it's private property and therefore they owner can what the fcuk they like, surely?

If so, just move to some public property, and the problem is solved - such as BL basketball court.

Well 'private' in the sense that it's owned by the City of London, and then managed by a third party. But then the City of London is a peculiar beast. It's own police force / statute etc.

Get one of the other city funders to bung you some cash, do an Awards for All £5k taster trix session etc., and they'd not want to encounter the bad press you could generate along the lines of* 'City of London' prevents positive activities for young people and encourages them to sit on park benches drinking white lightening*' type thing. Doesn't look good on them.

Besides, if they were aware of you in a positive way (ie. not just through the naked man complaining), they might be interested in supporting you.

"and now, City of London, we'd like to talk about the tricks night noise levels. Ed Scoble will show in his presentation that even when he is on the roof with everybody doing tricks around him, the noise levels are negligible".

;)

I'd agree with the line of thought I think snowy is going in, which seems to be that the City of London may in fact respond more positively as a private-status entity than other private or public bodies may. Then again they might bring their massive clout to it and come up with a great reason why 30 people on their bikes using a dead space positively and inoffensively is unacceptable and illegal.But it would surely be pandering to some shadowy corporate body we haven't figured in on all this who just want to have a boring view out of their office.

All very good inputs, thanks! OK, here is a draft: I'm going to lunch now, but see what yas think...

Good afternoon,

I am writing in response to alleged complaints by residents living in the area of White’s Row cark park, Spitalfields. I was given a business card with the Dept. of Environmental Services’ contact details.

I am part of a group of committed cyclists who use London’s public spaces to play cycling-based sports. For the last 2 years, we have been successfully meeting every Tuesday at **White's Row car park in Spitalfields, **to practice and teach other enthusiasts basic cycling ‘tricks’[B].[/B] I have been going to this meeting of cyclists for over a year, and the car park space has been excellent; the 24-hour car park has no cars on the top 3 floors, and is monitored by CCTV and Apcoa security, who have acknowledged us as being peaceful fun-driven cyclists, and there hasn’t been any problems with our convening there, until now.

We have been asked to leave the carpark for the last few Tuesdays by security. Apparently, there have been complaints from residents about us. Since the majority of us are responsible adults who merely wish to ride our bikes in peace, this seems uncalled for. Those of us who are not adults are responsible young people, who peacefully use the space during daylight hours. We do not make excessive noise, and moreover we are gone by around 9pm. There is no evidence of anti-social behaviour (including noise, graffiti, criminal damage and ‘distress’), so there are no grounds for security to move us on, as they have suddenly started doing. Should the alleged complaints be ASB-based, we have not been informed of this. There is no current Dispersal Zone restriction on the car park, the only one that has been publically displayed is the (now out of date) notice on the Tower Hamlets website, which is enforced outside of the days and hours that myself and the other cyclists convene at the site.

“The aim of dispersal zones is to address anti-social behaviour within the defined area covering parts of Spitalfields and Weavers wards. The Dispersal Zone is in operation Thursday, Friday and Saturday evening between 6pm and 2am from 23rd July 2009 to 30th August 2009”

It would be beneficial to all parties concerned to resolve this dispute, preferably before it becomes a major issue. In order to do this, it may be important to inform us of the source of the complaint. That, way, a mediator http://www.intermedial.org.uk/ could be assigned, and we can all move forward positively, as has been done with other similar cases around the country.

Or meeting of cyclists is self-managing and not anti-social, and is creating something positive. It would be a shame to put an end to years of our good work.

I look forward to your response

tash,

I used to work for the environment services section of a local council (not city of London) and while the letter sounds reasonable there's a few points you probably wont get very far with. First you don't make it clear whether residents have complained to the council or just the security guards at the car park. If they've complained to the council they almost certainly wont let you know who the complainant is, as it breaks data protection legislation.

If the residents have complained to the council, I'd imagine it would be on grounds of noise disturbance. This may be determined by the council as a 'statutory nuisance' under section 79 (i think) of the Environment Act 1990. If they assess that the noise is unacceptable in the residents flats they may go down the route of issuing a noise abatement notice, so it's not just dispersal zones the council could use to stop the fun. Of course if the council assess that there isn't a nuisance there's not much it can do.

I think your approach if defo a good idea though, just sometimes dealing with local councils can be frustrating.

good luck

Impressively well written and balanced-I'd be surprised if they don't take it on board.
Good luck!

All very good inputs, thanks! OK, here is a draft: I'm going to lunch now, but see what yas think...

Good afternoon,

I am writing in response to alleged complaints by residents living in the area of White’s Row cark park, Spitalfields. I was given a business card with the Dept. of Environmental Services’ contact details.

I am part of a group of committed cyclists who use London’s public spaces to play cycling-based sports. For the last 2 years, we have been successfully meeting every Tuesday at **White's Row car park in Spitalfields, **to practice and teach other enthusiasts basic cycling ‘tricks’[B].[/B] I have been going to this meeting of cyclists for over a year, and the car park space has been excellent; the 24-hour car park has no cars on the top 3 floors, and is monitored by CCTV and Apcoa security, who have acknowledged us as being peaceful fun-driven cyclists, and there hasn’t been any problems with our convening there, until now.

We have been asked to leave the carpark for the last few Tuesdays by security. Apparently, there have been complaints from residents about us. Since the majority of us are responsible adults who merely wish to ride our bikes in peace, this seems uncalled for. Those of us who are not adults are responsible young people, who peacefully use the space during daylight hours. We do not make excessive noise, and moreover we are gone by around 9pm. There is no evidence of anti-social behaviour (including noise, graffiti, criminal damage and ‘distress’), so there are no grounds for security to move us on, as they have suddenly started doing. Should the alleged complaints be ASB-based, we have not been informed of this. There is no current Dispersal Zone restriction on the car park, the only one that has been publically displayed is the (now out of date) notice on the Tower Hamlets website, which is enforced outside of the days and hours that myself and the other cyclists convene at the site.

“The aim of dispersal zones is to address anti-social behaviour within the defined area covering parts of Spitalfields and Weavers wards. The Dispersal Zone is in operation Thursday, Friday and Saturday evening between 6pm and 2am from 23rd July 2009 to 30th August 2009”

It would be beneficial to all parties concerned to resolve this dispute, preferably before it becomes a major issue. In order to do this, it may be important to inform us of the source of the complaint. That, way, a mediator http://www.intermedial.org.uk/ could be assigned, and we can all move forward positively, as has been done with other similar cases around the country.

Or meeting of cyclists is self-managing and not anti-social, and is creating something positive. It would be a shame to put an end to years of our good work.

I look forward to your response

I reckon that it all sounds like someone is being a bit overly officious. I reckon that on your response they will pick holes in you not having adequate insurance for what you do or whether the adults who attend have appropriate checks to supervise young people as well as pointing out various petty complaints from residents. Good luck anyway I may well be wrong and you get what you want!

gay i wanted to start going to this if i got into ucl pending my results in august.. :(

Nothing gay about it.

i'm on it, a revised version on its way.

PJ - My insurance comment was more of one to bring the tricks to a legitimate sort of area, so that point cant be complained about.

Private ground, you are trespassing, they have every right to boot you out, and you have no right to stay there. Sorry. Writing and trying to get official permission is a great idea, but if they allow you to do that and someone gets hurt...Occupier's Liability Act. Councils don't like that one.

Don't be surprised if this doesn't have a happy ending, even if the common sense approach would be a happy ending...

EDIT - the flip side is that dispersal zones don't apply, because they're for public spaces. And a disgrace, but that's a different matter.

yeah i know lynx, you're right, it is a point that could be brought up in argument against it. i was going for ironic nostalgia in my comment.. as i said, engaging in the bureaucratic process gets us further away from what it's all about, potentially.

anyway..

Dear ...

I am part of a self-organised group of cyclists who are interested in fixed gear bike freestyle and tricks, a niche sport which has grown over the last few years out of the enthusiasm for fixed gear bikes in London. Over the past two years we have been using the top (open air) floor of White's Row Car Park, Spitalfields, as a place to meet once a week where we can practice away from traffic and pedestrians. This has been happening on Tuesday evenings, between 7pm and 9pm.

Though we are a self-organising group of young people, the aim of the group is to practice and help each other improve. To that end, anyone who rides a fixed-gear bike and would like to learn more about bike handling or skills is welcome, and there's a very inclusive spirit to the evenings. I have been going along to these Tuesday nights for a while now and the car park space has been excellent for my improvement as a rider and freestyler; at this time of the evening the car park roof is not being used for parking and is well away from pedestrians and both stationary and moving vehicles, as well as being away from public places where practicing tricks and skills might be of public nuisance. In the early stages of starting the night, riders sought to speak to the Security staff on duty and inform them of our idea and ask for permission to be allowed to ride on the basis that litter would be collected and the riding would be conducted in a peaceful and orderly manner. Since then we have built a respectful relationship with the staff on duty and they have acknowledged us as being peaceful and polite.

However, in the last few weeks we have been asked to leave the car park when we have arrived. Apparently, there have been complaints from residents about us. We're not sure where these have arisen from and we would like to try to do something to resolve the situation without having to stop using the space. Every week that we meet up, anybody who joins us is there on the clear understanding that if we don't respect the space we are in, the night can't continue. Because of this we have been careful not to make intrusive noise and we do not allow people to leave litter. We would simply bar anyone displaying behaviour (vandalism, graffiti etc.) that would be detrimental to the group's reputation - but because the night isn't publicised as a general social evening the people who come are usually there to ride their bikes and practice tricks and handling skills - they simply aren't there to cause trouble or offence. And we will have always left to go home by 9.30pm at the latest.

There have been a number of young adults (myself included) whose quality of free time has been greatly improved since this local night started; there haven't been any negative incidents between parties and people have improved their cycling skills and got to know new friends as well as increase their enjoyment of riding and their overall fitness. This is a meeting which has created something positive out of nothing but enthusiastic bike riders and a car park space which isn't being used during certain hours.

So - we would very much like to be able to continue to use White's Row Car Park roof (and, if it's raining, the floor below it) on a Tuesday evening as it is an excellent space and one which will prove hard to match somewhere else in the city. We would be very grateful if we could discuss what we can do to achieve this in a way that is acceptable to The City of London and ourselves. You would of course be very welcome to come and take a look at what goes on in our Tuesday meetings should this help.

Kind Regards

Tash

Tuesday Night Trix

So it is definitely private property? I'm a little confused as to how the City of London is a private company...I thought it is part of the council, and therefore buildings/spaces owned by it are public?

no they're private. they're arguably the most powerful body in the country.. :(

Private ground, you are trespassing, they have every right to boot you out, and you have no right to stay there.

I agree, and we always knew this. But it's taken two years for this dynamic to appear - it'd be a shame not to try and smooth things over. There's no doubt in my mind that the night has lasted this long just because the people involved have been diplomatic and have done their best not to cause a nuisance, so to be told to leave because people have complained is disappointing.

Ah OK. On one hand then, if it's just that the nearby residents don't like it (as oppose to complaining about noise) they don't actually have a say in what goes on within such a private property. On the other hand, City of London could just tell me/us to f-off. Understood.

I like your edit - snowy has sent me one too, I'll use elements of both and send it off. I'll email Robin and see if he wants to be involved in this too as a spokesperson as you suggest.

I'm hoping this may be one of the occasions where me working for the world's biggest international multi-media news company helps a lot...

what's the health and safety stand on riding on the roof?

I have been to a few sessions. I am not a trick-cyclist. I went to learn some basic bicycle handling skills. I can now, as a result of the help and encouragement that i received, perform a rudimentary trackstand which has really enhanced my cycling in London's traffic.

Tash, I would suggest an accent on bicycle handling skills being passed on in a safe, traffic free environment.

You could says that trixie dix is responsible for the reduction of red light jumper due to their trackstanding 'skill'.

I've sent it now, there was indeed an accent on bike handling skills being learned in a safe traffic-free environment :)

Really hope we get a result on this, thanks so much everyone who's given suggestions today, I can say that every one of them has been taken into account, and I now feel more fully equipped to deal with the response from the letter (email) I've sent.

Jeez, I almost feel like crying, I'm so touched by everyone's support on here. Or I could be crashing from crazy amount of coffee and sugar I've had today

RLJ reduced, love it! no-handed trackstandin FTW. I gots mad skills dontchaknow

So it is definitely private property? I'm a little confused as to how the City of London is a private company...I thought it is part of the council, and therefore buildings/spaces owned by it are public?

The City of London Corporation is what the city has instead of a local council. It's a weird medieval hangover with lots of odd powers. Unlike normal councils, businesses get to vote in its elections as well as residents. [ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_London_Corporation[/ame]