• That's so horrible, fingers crossed for a full recovery! It's absolutely unbelievable that the dog wasn't muzzled or under better control. You'd think that if the dog was capable of a seemingly unprovoked attack the owners would be aware of a behavioural issue and would hope that they'd act accordingly.

    Edit: sorry, that was directed at @allshookup

  • Sigh, Ok look here's some facts.

    • Bulldogs were bred for baiting bulls and other animals like bears, it's where they get their name.
    • As that was made illegal they were interbred with terrier type dogs to increase their aggression and kill instinct against other dogs, this is where the Pit Bull comes from.
    • The Pit Bull and Staffordshire Bull Terrier were the same dog, the only difference being the staffy stayed in the UK and the pit bull came from the dogs taken to the USA.
    • Dog fighting was made illegal but of course continues around the world today.
    • Pit bulls, either specifically or similar, have since been made illegal in some places around the world, including the UK due to their aggression.

    "The extinct Old English Bulldog was specially bred for this sport"

    "By the 15th century, in addition to catching horses, cattle, and boars in legitimate (if dangerous) farming use, bulldogs were also used in the barbaric “sport” called bull-baiting, in which trained dogs would latch onto a tethered bull’s nose and not let go until the dog had pulled the bull to the ground or the bull had killed the dog. Over the course of 350 years, until bull-baiting was banned in 1835, bulldogs were bred for aggression, and an 80-pound dog could easily bring down a bull weighing close to a ton by corkscrewing its own body around its neck, tossing the bull over its own center of gravity."

    "It is the direct descendant of the bull and terrier cross-bred from the Old English Bulldog and the Old English Terrier.[3]

    After the introduction of legislation criminalising dogfighting in 1835 and again in 1911, the Stafford was more commonly kept as a companion dog. Its history as a fighting dog made it difficult for the breed to gain recognition by the British Kennel Club; it was eventually recognised in 1935"

    "These bloodsports were officially eliminated in 1835 as Britain began to introduce animal welfare laws. Since dogfights were cheaper to organize and far easier to conceal from the law than bull or bear baits, bloodsport proponents turned to pitting their dogs against each other instead. Dog fighting was used as both a bloodsport (often involving gambling) and a way to continue to test the quality of their stock. For decades afterwards, dog fighting clandestinely took place in pockets of working-class Britain and America. Dogs were released into a pit, and the last dog still fighting (or occasionally, the last dog surviving) was recognized as the winner. The quality of pluckiness or “gameness” was still highly prized, and dogs that gave up during a fight were reviled as “curs”. As an important aside, fighting dogs were often handled in the pit during fights, by both their owners and the judge, so were bred to be as trustworthy with humans as they were aggressive towards other dogs"

    "The breed attained UK Kennel Club recognition on 25 May 1935. Staffordshires were imported into the US during this time. Though very popular in the United Kingdom, the Staffordshire Bull Terrier has not gained the same fame in the United States.

    In the US many were imported by pit fighters and used in their breeding programs to produce the American Pit Bull Terrier and American Staffordshire Terrier. Many were imported by British nationals who brought their dogs with them or U.S. expatriates who fell in love with the breed in England and brought it home. The Staffordshire breed was recognized in the U.S. in 1976"

    "The Staffordshire Bull Terrier shares the same ancestry as the Bull Terrier, i.e. Bulldog crossed with the Black and Tan terrier, and was developed as a fighting dog"


    So pit bulls, staffys, whatever, they're all the same underneath, some may not be as aggressive as others but they were directly bred for fighting other dogs. Trying to distinguish between them and deny their nature is being wilfully ignorant and can have dangerous consequences. One of the effects of having dogs around that were bred physically and mentally to attack other dogs is not only can they seem like the perfect pet until they decide they want to kill that one specific dog, but they also have the physiology to do so.

    Now let's look at some statistics.
    Here in the UK:
    "Peer-Reviewed Study Examines Dog-on-Dog Attacks in the UK by Analyzing News Media Articles
    The most reported attacking breed was the Staffordshire bull terrier. The victim tended to be a small-sized dog, and these attacks often had adverse psychological and physical effects. Costs as a result of the attack ranged from £75 to £9,000 (~ $98-11,800 USD). The owner intervened in just under half of cases and often suffered injuries defending their dog. (Montrose, 2020)"

    There's a bunch more numbers on that page if you care to read it although it won't back up the lies you've sold yourself.

    In the US and parts of Canada there are no bans on actual pit bulls so we can see real statistics.

    "In 2004, the last full year before the ban, there were 984 pit bulls licensed in Toronto and 168 reported pit bull bites. That’s more than double the rate of German shepherds, the next most aggressive breed.

    "There were 46 dog attack fatalities in 2019. Pit Bulls Were responsible for 33 of them.
    (Forbes, Animals 24-7)"

    The figures, compiled by the city’s Animal Services division at the Star’s request, come from comparing a breed’s licensed population with the number of times it was reported to have bitten a person or pet.

    In 2013, the pit bull population was down to 501, and there were only 13 reported pit bull bites."

    How about let's look at some fatal attacks on dogs by dogs in the UK
    2020 - 3/4 fatal dog attacks are by staffy, staffy x, or american bulldog.

    2010 to 2019- 19/27 fatal attacks by the same.

    I could go on but to be honest I'll be surprised if you bother reading this far after shutting off your brain while repeating "the bad man doesn't like my cute little staffy, it wouldn't hurt a fly".

  • If the woman you mention in your anectdote had her dog on a lead and gestured for you to keep your dog away, then she was acting responsibly if her dog is reactive (which it could be for any number of reasons).

    Also what the fuck is this. If you have a reactive dog, so much so that you need to shout 20 meters ahead to any potential other dogs that yours is a danger, then it's on you to take it home and find somewhere it won't have a chance of interacting with something it may attack or put a muzzle on it. "she was acting responsibly", give over.

  • In my opinion, you shouldn’t have your dog off its lead unless you’re 100% confident you can recall it every time.

    Far too many irresponsible owners (it’s normally cockapoos or similar) let their dogs tear up to our nervous dog (always on a lead) and bark in his face trying to initiate play despite me asking them to call them back before he snaps. Nine times out of 10 they can’t and I have to make a decision to let him snap or get between the dogs and shoo the other one away.

  • If you have a reactive dog, so much so that you need to shout 20 meters ahead

    I’ll shout 20 metres ahead without hesitation if I see another dog out of control tearing towards mine.

  • Very much this - we were out at the weekend for a walk & a woman randomly started running toward us asking if Mavis was a boy in quite a panicked tone - we then noticed her friend was standing just a bit further back and was struggling to hold onto what can only be described as Zuul from fucking ghostbusters' big brother. Apparently her dog really did not like other boy dogs & had history of going for them - no muzzle, lead like a shoelace & the woman holding the thing was about half the weight of it if she was lucky.

    Too many idiots like these wandering around with huge dogs they can't / don't know how to control.

  • Too many idiots like these wandering around with huge dogs they can't / don't know how to control

    I see far more people with small dogs that they can’t control to be honest.

  • I'm not really sure why you're making up situations to argue about here. This only came up because I recounted a story of a woman shouting at me about hers while I was playing with mine. It wasn't running towards her, hadn't even noticed her or her dog, it was fully involved with the tennis ball.

  • All dogs come from a long line of competitive, scavenging animals who are used to having to assert their place in a hierarchy, fend off other animals from potential food sources and so on. They’re all built, physically and mentally for potential aggression. I’m not sure how helpful focussing on specific breeds or groups of breeds are as by far the biggest contributing factor in the behaviour of a domesticated pet will be the owner/s.

    Our dog is a German shepherd cross. He has the potential to be a territorial, aggressive dog. His temperament has always been good, but we have gone to great lengths to nurture that, socialise him and establish boundaries. He’s a lovely boy and ‘wouldn’t hurt a fly’ etc but I’m under no illusion that he could have turned out very differently with different owners.

    It’s always the owner - they are the ones responsible for the situations the dog finds themselves in and they are the ones responsible for modifying their dogs’ behaviours.

  • Nature / nurture etc

  • yes bad owner will = bad dog. But I don't understand denying a dog's genetics. Everyone accepts that gun dogs and hearding dogs exist and are naturally inclined to do what they've historically been bred to, but when it comes to fighting dogs it's suddenly all on the owner.

  • Yep, this also happens - I was recounting a personal experience that gave me the slight fear after reading someone else mentioning their dog was badly injured by a large, out of control dog.

    Anyone going out with a dog they cannot control is a dick, just to be clear, however i'd much rather a couple of mildly annoying cockapoos woofed at my dog than a 15 stone monster tried to kill her.

    There's a "dog walker" near me that takes out half a dozen labs / gsd / setters at at time in a big field (off the lead) use by loads of folk for dog walking & they're all over the place, jumping on top of everyone & their dog they come across, nice dogs but i've come close to booting some of them a couple of times - he's a complete dick, no idea what he's doing & always apologising for the dogs jumping on people & annoying other dogs... the dogs aren't he issue here either.

  • Sorry, working so don’t have time to respond for now. I don’t know if the “denying genetics” was aimed at me, but my previous contributions on this thread about bull breeds will show - after a lifetime of owning them - that I’m far from denying their nature. Hope to provide a fuller reply later, your extensive research deserves it!

  • Sorry - it wasn’t meant to come across that way. I was suggesting the owner has probably been put on edge by owners who don’t necessarily have dogs under control.

    I’m overly sensitive around this because I’ve done hundreds of hours of training with our dog on his reactivity and it annoys me when owners let their dogs charge at a dog on a lead and sets that process back.

  • You’re right that lack of control is certainly amplified when it’s a big dog.

    There's a "dog walker" near me

    Surely they have to be registered? Worth reporting to the council.

  • That's a good point & maybe worth investigating - i'm sure it's a guy i've seen advertising on local fb pages portraying himself as some holistic shaman of the dog walking world, i've spoken to a couple of people walking there who were pissed off his herd of probably lovely, but slightly excitable dogs were running rampant around old / nervous dogs on leads.

    If I entrusted my dog to him & seen them tearing about like that I would not be happy

  • You’re taking your dog to places where you know there are playful dogs running round off the lead and you’re complaining there are playful dogs running around off the lead?

    What am I missing?

  • What am I missing?

    The fact that parks and public spaces are not just for people with harmless/friendly/lovely/playful dogs, they're for everyone. That includes people without dogs, people with kids, people who are scared of dogs and people with dog behavioural issues. On the latter there is no excuse for an out of control dangerous dog but some people are trying there hardest to give an often badly treated dog a second chance whilst keeping everyone else safe. Part of that will be try and reintegrate that dog with the outer world which is a difficult and often stressful exercise. Try and have some empathy for how difficult that might be if other dog walkers don't extend at least a small amount of that courtesy back.

  • Snark aside, I get where you’re coming from. There’s a field that’s part of a large park near me. It’s where a lot of people take dogs and have them off lead, me included. Every now and again I encounter a lady who has 2 dogs on leads with ‘nervous’ labels. She has zero tolerance to other dogs being off lead around her dogs (who I would say are just unsocialised rather than inheritantly nervous). Fine, Odie goes on a lead when I see them, as I don’t fully trust him to not want to go and say hi. Kind of annoying, though, when she’s loitering in the middle of a big field that’s perfect for energetic dogs - why not just walk her dogs in the main bit of the park if they’re not going to be charging around?

  • @allshookup , that's awful to hear, so sorry this has happened and i hope you and you, your partner and your dog recover soon. As i already said an out of control dangerous dog is inexcusable and you've done the right thing to report it.

  • He’s fine with dogs running around. He’ll sit quite happily and watch them. But if a dog comes up to him and starts barking in his face, I’ve got every right to expect the owner of that dog is able to spot that is an issue and recall it.

    If they can’t, their dog is not in control.

  • Had something similar in a fenced/gated dog-run type bit of a park - got to the gate to be told 'oh no, don't come in, my dog doesn't like other dogs'.

  • Ha! I think my reply would have been something along the lines of ‘I guess you’ll need to leave then’. Cheeky git.

  • Firstly, I apologise if I got under your skin on this last night, I didn't mean to make it personal. Secondly, that's an impressive amount of research you've got through, I hope you'll be able to catch up on your sleep! We don't actually disagree on much.

    I haven't got time to respond in detail to each of the articles you've quoted or referred to, but your history of the different bull breeds is broadly accurate. As someone who was around when the DDA came in, it was clear that it had little to do with the aggressiveness of pit bulls, but more a knee-jerk politicians' response to one particularly high profile and horrific attack on a young girl. The politicians introduced breed specific legislation that identified four breeds - American Pit Bull Terriers, Japanese Tosas (of which there were only known to be two in the country, owned by Ed Reid in Croydon), Dogo Argentinos and Fila Brasilieros. I don't believe there were any of the last two in the UK and there were no reported attacks by the last three. The government targeted breeds that didn't have the protection of an influential lobby like the Kennel Club, and didn't go for GSDs, Rotties and others because they knew MPs would be lobbied hard. BSL was, in my opinion, the wrong way to go to improve public safety, but it is what we have today.

    I'm on record in this thread of clearly stating that staffs can have a higher propensity for aggression towards other dogs, because of their original purpose - and that they require responsible ownership. Owners who are not in control of any dog are a liability, and more so with certain breeds. I've always said that and so your comment below is an unfair and unwarranted characterisation of my position:

    I could go on but to be honest I'll be surprised if you bother reading this far after shutting off your brain while repeating "the bad man doesn't like my cute little staffy, it wouldn't hurt a fly".

    On the question of dog attacks on humans, it is worth saying that "dog men" (breeders of fighting dogs) used to and continue to cull "man biters" - it is seen as an undesirable trait, as dogs need to be handled in the pit, often by strangers, whilst fighting another dog. Breeders of pit bulls in the 70s and 80s in the UK used to keep GSDs and Rotties to guard their yards, as pits were too easy to steal. All of that said, of course, a human aggressive pit bull, staff or other strong dog is frightening and can cause a lot of damage. It is easy to quote statistics that support your argument, but I agree that there is a higher than average number of attacks on people from pit bulls. I would suggest that these numbers are inflated by a combination of their popularity amongst irresponsible owners (and those who encourage human aggression) as status dogs, the higher likelihood of "pit bull attacks" being reported and an inability of most people to correctly identify a pit bull. Nonetheless, the numbers are not good.

    There's a bunch more numbers on that page if you care to read it although it won't back up the lies you've sold yourself.

    You may not agree with much of what I say, but I struggle to understand how this comment is helpful. What are the lies you're referring to? In none of my comments last night did I make any claims about the aggression of pit bulls, staffs or anything else.

    Which brings us back to where the argument started - whether an American Staffordshire Terrier is a pit bull - and I don't think we are far apart on that. I think you are using term pit bull where I would use bull breed. Bull breed is a term that covers a number of different breeds of dog in the way gun dog might. They include the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, American Pit Bull Terrier, Alapaha Blue Blood Bulldog, English Bulldog and many others. They are all individual and separate breeds that share some similar traits and some ancestry. If you choose to use pit bull to describe them all, then that is misleading, as is saying they are all effectively the same.

    they're the most dangerous type of dog by far

    You haven't seen a Caucasian Ovcharka or Kurdish Kangal in the flesh then...

    I'm really happy to continue this conversation, but can we do so in good faith and keep the personal insults out of it?

  • I think this has been covered by others' replies but, for what it's worth, here is my view, which I've posted before.

    Owners can be walking dogs on the lead and prefer not to be approached by other dogs for a variety of reasons. I had a dog that underwent ACL surgery and, as part of its rehabilitation needed to be walked on the lead very carefully otherwise a more serious injury could have occurred - I would warn off any off-lead dog approaching so that I could keep my dog calm. Rescue dogs can be nervous because of how they've been treated. Dogs that have suffered an attack can become reactive - this happened to my last dog. A friend's elderly dog is easily knocked over and will suffer a seizure. Some dogs are just unfriendly and want to be left alone, and will become aggressive if they're not. All of these are perfectly acceptable reasons for wanting off-lead dogs to keep their distance, and the owners have every right to walk their dogs without fear of an unwanted approach.

    Obviously I don't know the situation you described in detail, and I'm sure you weren't at fault, but asking someone to keep their off-lead dog away from 20m seems responsible to me (a dog can travel 20m very quickly), if it avoids an incident - only, of course, if the other owner has their dog on a lead.

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I want to get a dog but I have to work, how does everyone on broadway market do it ?

Posted by Avatar for jv @jv