Any question answered...

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  • Ah, here we go:
    Dutch
    Something or someone from the Netherlands, a small country in North-West Europe. Because of the many conflicts and wars between England and The Republic of the Seven United Netherlands (as it was then called), 17th century English knew many expressions containing the word to describe something in a derogatory manner. Some of these expressions are still used.
    Dutch widow (a prostitute).

    Or, as I was thinking of in this case:

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.ph­p?term=dutch+oven

    • Osteopaths, chiropractors, acupuncture, trigger points, other pseudo-science.


    HAHAHAHA I didn't actually see that bit of your original post.

    I'm not gonna spend time trying to persuade you that osteopathy may help whatever condition the physio was helping you with. But I will say this:

    1. I have been awarded a BEng as well as an MSc from UCL. It doesn't end there, I am also a published (co)author of a peer reviewed publication in the Royal Society of Science. By all means, I am a scientist. I am now doing a course in osteopathy because I've decided that's what I want to do with my life. I wouldn't call it pseudo-science and I CAN tell the difference, I assure you. Your opinion may vary.

    2. I see patients as part of my course (have been since september). I have a number of patients who see a physio post surgery, as mandated by the NHS - but they also come to see me. Not because their physio session have finished, they see me at the same time. They pay to do so. You think they are all deluded? I don't think so, I think there is a (very good) reason for it. again - your opinion may vary.

    I'm out.

  • hehe.

    Sorry. Kind of a British tradition to stick the word 'Dutch' in front of anything that has the potential to be remarkably perverse.

    Think it has something to do with a stereotype for bestiality and that kind of thing. Maybe Tester knows more, he usually does (no innuendo).
    I rode past My Old Dutch the other day.

    My appetite was not whetted.

  • That's nice for you. I'm sure that your claims to be an authority bring you comfort.

    But who mentioned anyone being deluded? From what you say, you seem to be suggesting that they might be.

    It's not quite the science-based evidence for effectiveness that would persuade me that it was worth more than a passing interest, but it's nice nonetheless.

    Thanks.

  • It's not quite the science-based evidence for effectiveness

    Where are you getting this from?

  • I'm out.
    Now I'm just confused...

    Where are you getting this from?
    While I would never claim this as authoritative, it's more than the non-evidence you have provided to support your position.

    Osteopathy - Evidence

    Evidence for osteopathy

    To judge whether a health treatment is safe and effective, we need evidence. Evidence on a treatment is gathered by conducting fair scientific tests of the treatment.

    When we use a treatment and feel better, this can sometimes happen because of a phenomenon called the placebo effect, and not because of the treatment itself. To find out more, watch a video about the placebo effect.

    This means, although many people treated by osteopaths report good results, it is not always clear how effective the treatment actually is for certain conditions.
    What evidence is there?

    Most research into techniques used in osteopathy tends to focus on general 'manual therapy' techniques, such as spinal manipulation. Manual therapy techniques are used by physiotherapists and chiropractors as well as osteopaths.

    However, there is some good evidence that manual therapy performed by osteopaths is an effective treatment for persistent lower back pain. This is why guidelines from the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (NICE) on this condition state this can be considered as a treatment option.

    NICE also recommends manual therapy as a possible treatment option for osteoarthritis, but osteopathy is not specifically mentioned.

    There is no good evidence that osteopathy is an effective treatment for:

    asthma
    painful periods
    excessive crying in babies (colic) 
    the abnormal curvature of the spine to the sides (scoliosis)
    sinusitis (inflammation of the sinuses)
    stress
    depression
    
  • And let's be clear here - I'm looking to give someone money to treat a condition that is causing pain and discomfort.

    I'm not looking to win an argument with someone who is butt hurt because I'm calling their chosen profession woo-woo gullible bullshit.

  • Certainly when it comes to Cranio Sacral Osteopathy there are no studies that I have ever been made aware of, despite extended searching, that demonstrates a super-placebo efficacy.

    I am also rather disturbed by the vagueness of diagnosis, prognosis and success criteria offered by practitioners of this discipline.

    I was also rather put off by the number of cranio sacral osteopaths who also advertise themselves as dolphin energy healers.

    BTW, I am aware that there is some distinction between CSO and the more general osteopathy.

  • next you'll be telling me these things don't work...

    http://www.powerbalance.de/shop/wristban­ds/pro-ion/pro-ion.html

  • And let's be clear here - I'm looking to give someone money to treat a condition that is causing pain and discomfort.

    I'm not looking to win an argument with someone who is butt hurt because I'm calling their chosen profession woo-woo gullible bullshit.

    I'm not butthurt because of what you said, rather I am butthurt by the surgery I had last week, I was sent off with no antibiotics and a (purposefully) open wound from the operating theatre and lo and behold - it's now infected and my GP is monitoring the condition with A+E mentioned as a possible backup. But that's another story for a different day.

    Also - there is no point in arguing with you and in fact I tried not to sound like I was arguing. If you think that osteopathy is bullshit, then that's fine. I can't imagine that you're going to change your mind anytime soon, despite any evidence I might present.

    However - you can take a badly written NHS webpage and draw all your inferences from that and that's clearly what you're doing, cherry picking evidence to back up your view. OR you can also take into account that the osteopaths act (as someone mentioned before) was brought in for a reason, that shit didn't just happen by accident. You could also take into account the fact that the NICE guidelines mention osteopathy and that there are, in fact - NHS osteopaths out there. Not many, mind.

    You could also take into account that an appointment at the british school of osteopathy will cost you £26 (I think), you could probably have it within 2-3 days (we have a lot of students) and the first appointment will last EDIT 80 mins (yes the students are learning, but the duration is also due to the fact that we have to be thorough and safe to treat).

    Yes, some osteopaths claim to treat colic, asthma, period pain, etc etc but I don't believe them either. IF your problem is musculoskeletal in nature and you were treated by a physio then an osteo will be able to help. You will find that GENERALLY there is less exercise prescription and a lot more hands on work on a couch.

  • next you'll be telling me these things don't work...

    http://www.powerbalance.de/shop/wristban­ds/pro-ion/pro-ion.html

    An opportunity to link this thread. I think it's one of my favourites:
    http://www.lfgss.com/thread43413.html

  • ha. pedo-water

  • you can also take into account that the osteopaths act (as someone mentioned before) was brought in for a reason, that shit didn't just happen by accident.

    That shit usually happens because a bunch of quacks see it as a wise investment to bribe politicians to provide state regulatory protection of the quacks' proprietary rights to a particular formulation of snake oil.

  • cherry picking evidence to back up your view
    I started with the question "how effective is osteopathy" - then reviewed the available (meta) evidence, and formed a view. That's not cherry picking - that's science.

    OR you can also take into account that the osteopaths act (as someone mentioned before) was brought in for a reason, that shit didn't just happen by accident. You could also take into account the fact that the NICE guidelines mention osteopathy and that there are, in fact - NHS osteopaths out there. Not many, mind.
    That's not evidence either, is it. That's flaky post-hoc reasoning.

    I can't imagine that you're going to change your mind anytime soon, despite any evidence I might present.
    For some curious reason, you claim to know how I would act, and yet you don't know me at all. My opinion is formed on the basis of the available evidence.

    The quality of your argument does precious little to boost your credibility.

  • Do I need spacers with a 1" threadless headset?

    Wish to buy this:

    http://www.campagnolo.com/jsp/en/groupse­tdetail/item_seriesterzRThre_catid_7.jsp­

  • I started with the question "how effective is osteopathy" - then reviewed the available (meta) evidence, and formed a view. That's not cherry picking - that's science.

    That's not evidence either, is it. That's flaky post-hoc reasoning.

    For some curious reason, you claim to know how I would act, and yet you don't know me at all. My opinion is formed on the basis of the available evidence.

    The quality of your argument does precious little to boost your credibility.

    Dude, I don't give a shit what you think of osteopathy, I really don't. And if I never see you as a patient, then so much the better.

    You're on here claiming you reviewed meta evidence, etc - yet all you've done so far is link to a badly written nhs choices webpage, nothing else.

    Where is this evidence that you speak of?

  • Yes - exactly. As long as everyone involved is clear that you a producing a mock-up, and that a mock up is suitable for the purposes of the demo that's pretty much what I would suggest.

    Axure is good for that kind of thing but you can also do it in Powerpoint (export presso as web pages)

    Awsome thanks this is good to know. Turns out the they want an actual web dashboard (keep changing their minds, grr!) so doing the HTMl/CSS table view page and someone else is looking at the backend logic behind it. Thanks Howard for all your help.

  • Balls - my physio has moved to Chester.

    Who can recommend me a physio?

    Any practitioners of woo-woo* can >>>>>>>>>>>> though.

    • Osteopaths, chiropractors, acupuncture, trigger points, other pseudo-science.

    Crystals & homeopathy are, of course, totally legit. As is voodoo and earth magic.

    I go to Back on Track sports physio in Catford. It was recommended to me by Dammit and I cannot recommend it highly enough. I fully credit Paul with me being 5 days away from running a marathon and not being injured.

    Takes BUPA but not sure whether you get any healing crystals or anything.

  • Dude, I don't give a shit what you think of osteopathy, I really don't. And if I never see you as a patient, then so much the better.

    You're on here claiming you reviewed meta evidence, etc - yet all you've done so far is link to a badly written nhs choices webpage, nothing else.

    Where is this evidence that you speak of?

    I wasn't aware that I owed you a paper on the lack of evidence of the efficacy of of osteopathy.

    If I wasnt clear enough earlier (you knw, when I wrote "To be clear" - I don't need to have an argument on the efficacy of osteopathy. I have done enough research to suit my needs. I don't need to justify that to anyone, least of all some random.

    While for some musculo-skeletal conditions there is reasonable evidence to suggest that its as good as any physio, thats not all all osteopathy claims to fix and cure, is it. There's a whole canon of osteopathy that makes woowoo claims, with bollocks all evidence.

    There's plenty of evidence that you're a whiny butthurt bedwetter though, irrespective of your claims that you are out, or that you don't care.

    Good luck with your chosen career. I'm sure you'll have plenty of success.

  • Thanks Hats - I'll give them a look.

  • ^^I went to see Paul and I've never had a painful period since.

  • While for some musculo-skeletal conditions there is reasonable evidence to suggest that its as good as any physio, thats not all all osteopathy claims to fix and cure, is it. There's a whole canon of osteopathy that makes woowoo claims, with bollocks all evidence.

    There's plenty of evidence that you're a whiny butthurt bedwetter though, irrespective of your claims that you are out, or that you don't care.

    Good luck with your chosen career. I'm sure you'll have plenty of success.

    And aren't you looking to have a musculoskeletal condition treated? If so, given your own admission that evidence exists - then what's stopping you? yes there is a canon of people making claims, but just avoid them.

    Going back to your original request for a recommendation for a physio, you could have easily made it without running your mouth about how osteopathy or whatever else is woo hoo and all that shit.

    But you didn't do that, because from the evidence given you're clearly a stubborn sob who has made a decision about a whole profession on the basis of what some of them claim but cannot back up. And then you go on talking about "evidence" that you've never produced. My problem isn't with your decision, it's that you may influence others who may believe your weak-ass claims and not do their own research.

    You can make your decision about anything and form and opinion and that's cool, but there just isn't any reason for you to go round talking shit about how a whole profession is woo-hoo without provocation. That just makes you a cunt.

  • What about your periods?

  • Can someone clarify the differences between woo-woo, woo-hoo, and voo-doo?

    Please show cleary referenced evidence of your workings.

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Any question answered...

Posted by Avatar for carson @carson

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