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Yeah, that's true - I can't see any religious element in either of those conflicts.
Well, I said to say that is ALL either conflict is about is an oversimplification!
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Good fucking lord ! :)
Do you honestly think we would be in this situation if God had not promised Canaan to the Jews ?
I am not going to get in to this, but I really can't believe anyone could think that this is not fuelled and defined by religion.
I agree that Northern Ireland was as you say not a religious conflict (as much as people claim it was) - but when it did go off we all saw very clearly down which social fissure the country split, religious division. Whilst not being the cause, religion fuelled the conflict, sustained it, it evolved into a sectarian war.
Perhaps. But the religious issue was (and still is) probably a bigger issue to the loyalists/unionists that it is to the republicans/nationalists.
It never helped that almost all republicans/nationalists were Catholic. At least in the last 30 years. And I guess the inverse was pretty true, too.
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what surprises me is that so few people know about all this, yet it's British history from only 60 years ago.
I can't answer for you guys, but we never learned much about this stuff in US schools. And what we did learn was very pro-Israel. And, of course, our media is pretty much 100% behind Israel all the time.
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our media seems anti-israel but in a cringe-worthy, diplomatic, polite, British guise.
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I would like to add one more thing:
I really, really don't want to start a stupid flame war over Israel. In my experience, this is a topic that seems to bring out the worst in everybody (including me). I should probably know better than to start posting stuff, but I guess I'm too stupid for my own good.
So I will do my best to keep it civil and would like to make it clear that none of this is personal!
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Well, I said to say that is ALL either conflict is about is an oversimplification!
No, you're right of course.
I just find it a bit sickening that the influence of religion (a concept that is completely ridiculous and at odds with all observable reality) is largely taken for granted in these conflicts.
If both sides weren't fervently religious, then they'd probably be squabbling on tribal or racial grounds. But religion is the petrol on the bonfire, so the situation is all the more frustrating for being so fucking ludicrous.
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our media seems anti-israel but in a cringe-worthy, diplomatic, polite, British guise.
one of the reasons for this is that reporting is framed in the language that is used. So reporters aren't allowed to report from the *theater *unless they agree to use specific terms pre-agreed by the military.
this whole subject is fascinating when coupled with the outsourcing of the military (e.g. in Iraq) - the only people who actually work for the government are the PR and press management guys. Everyone else is a
mercenaryprivate contractor. -
But the crux of this is that a bunch of people showed up and pretty much took over the land.
Yes - But why ? Something to do with the Bible perhaps ?
And there were people living and working there.
Yes, non Jews, gentiles !
And the settlers had been told Palestine was a 'land without people for a people without a land.' This was obviously not true. So, from the Palestinian side, they were pissed off that they had their land and homes stolen by Europeans who felt god had promised it all to them.
There you go making my argument for me again ! :)
'A land without people for a people without a land.' - The phrase is from 'Israel according from the covenant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob' (or a very similar title) - sounds all very scriptural to me ! :)
They aren't arguing (or weren't arguing) about the bible.
Tell that to the 'settlers'.
Prior to the 19th century, Jews and Muslims had lived side by side in Palestine. That's not to say there weren't issues from time to time, but it was the arrival of Zionists that created the current problem.
Agreed, but zionism is rooted in religious tradition and the 'promised land' a central idea.
It is - at it's root - a religious war.
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Yes - But why ? Something to do with the Bible perhaps ?
Yes, non Jews, gentiles !
There you go making my argument for me again ! :)
'A land without people for a people without a land.' - The phrase is from 'Israel according from the covenant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob' (or a very similar title) - sounds all very scriptural to me ! :)
Tell that to the 'settlers'.
Agreed, but zionism is rooted in religious tradition and the promised land a central idea.
It is at it's root a religious war.
I see what you're saying. I think I interpreted 'Biblical law' differently than what you meant. So, basically, we are in the same ballpark, I think :)
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No, you're right of course.
I just find it a bit sickening that the influence of religion (a concept that is completely ridiculous and at odds with all observable reality) is largely taken for granted in these conflicts.
If both sides weren't fervently religious, then they'd probably be squabbling on tribal or racial grounds. But religion is the petrol on the bonfire, so the situation is all the more frustrating for being so fucking ludicrous.
Yeah, kinda sad. It seems like religion ends up making everything worse. Religion makes everything unresolvable... because people are so absolute in their beliefs. No one will compromise what they believe to be the will or word of 'god.'
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No, you're right of course.
I just find it a bit sickening that the influence of religion (a concept that is completely ridiculous and at odds with all observable reality) is largely taken for granted in these conflicts.
If both sides weren't fervently religious, then they'd probably be squabbling on tribal or racial grounds. But religion is the petrol on the bonfire, so the situation is all the more frustrating for being so fucking ludicrous.
Absolute agreement.
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I must apologise to everyone for bringing this up, didnt think it would get all shouty.
Hey- no one's used ALL CAPS.... yet ;)
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zionist apologist !
enemy of the people!
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did you see that mosque that got bombed?
;)
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There's a war going on you know...
Posted by
@DFP
it was Earl Peel that promised Canaan to the Jews.
though I found out something new:
The Holocaust and the Jewish Revolt
In 1939, as a consequence of the MacDonald White Paper, the British reduced the number of immigrants allowed into Palestine. World War II and the Holocaust started shortly thereafter and once the 15,000 annual quota was exceeded, Jews fleeing Nazi persecution were placed in detention camps or deported to places such as Mauritius.[91]
Starting in 1939, the Zionists organized an illegal immigration effort, known as Aliya Beth, conducted by "Hamossad Le'aliyah Bet", that rescued tens of thousands of European Jews from the Nazis by shipping them to Palestine in rickety boats. Many of these boats were intercepted. The last immigrant boat to try to enter Palestine during the war was the Struma, torpedoed in the Black Sea by a Soviet submarine in February 1942. The boat sank with the loss of nearly 800 lives. Illegal immigration resumed after World War II.
***Eliyahu Hakim and Eliyahu Bet Zuri, members of the Jewish Lehi underground, assassinated Lord Moyne in Cairo on 6 November 1944. Moyne was the British Minister of State for the Middle East. ***The assassination is said by some to have turned British Prime Minister Winston Churchill against the Zionist cause. The ban on illegal immigration continued.
After the assassination of Lord Moyne, the Haganah kidnapped, interrogated, tortured and turned over to the British many members of the Irgun and Lehi, along with many of its political opponents, active members of the Revisionist party, political opponents of the Jewish Agency.[92] Irgun ordered its members not to resist or retaliate with violence, so as to prevent a civil war.
Following the war, 250,000 Jewish refugees were stranded in displaced persons (DP) camps in Europe. Despite the pressure of world opinion, in particular the repeated requests of US President Harry S. Truman and the recommendations of the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry that 100,000 Jews be immediately granted entry to Palestine, the British maintained the ban on immigration. The Jewish underground forces then united and carried out several terrorist attacks and bombings against the British. In 1946, the Irgun blew up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, the headquarters of the British administration, killing 92 people.
Following the bombing, the British Government began imprisoning illegal Jewish immigrants in Cyprus. Those imprisoned were held without trial and included women and children. Most were holocaust survivors.