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  • I think you and @hugo7 are talking at cross purposes. Because your post was a lot more ambiguous than you think.

    Here's what sumo said:

    My point is I think it's less excuseable to spout racist shit in 2008 than 1980 because it's less prevalent.

    To which you said

    I think it's the other way round.

    I think @hugo7 read "I'd argue it's the other way round" as meaning "It was actually less excusable to spout racist shit in 1980". I certainly wasn't sure what you meant, but left it. Now it looks as if you meant "It's less prevalent in 2008 because it's less excusable".

    Hope that clears things up. Unless I got one or both of you wrong, in which case it's less clear than ever.

  • Ah right, I didn’t pick up on that possible 1st interpretation. ‘It's less prevalent in 2008 because it's less excusable’ is what I meant.

  • OK, while I'm on a roll, you're describing why racism was less (openly) prevalent in the society of 2008 than in 1980, but sumo was saying that an individual in 2008 had less excuse in a society where racism was less prevalent, not talking about how society got there. Cross purposes again.

  • It’s not less prevalent tho’

    I think, like misogyny it’s on the rise.

  • Now compared to 2008, yes. 2008 compared to 1980, no.

  • 2008 to now it might be on the rise but 1980 - 2008 I'm pretty sure racism was falling. Just watch some openly racist comedy from the 80s and 90s as a barometer.

  • Jinks

  • I’m not sure I agree.

    Living in SE London over much of that time it definitely felt like things were improving- hip hop and rave seemed to have a positive effect on my generation, yet the casual misogyny and inherent racism of ‘lad culture’ was there at the same time.
    Racism never went away, just moved out of London -and other cities where there was white (working class) flight.
    There aren’t NF pubs in Lewisham (I know someone who lost an eye sticking up for his Indian mate) - but there are plenty like that in Rochester or wherever.

    Gauging the prevalence and degree of racism depends on what metric you’re using. Public expression of racist views has been mostly shut down, yet they thrive in the anonymity of the Internet.
    Systemic, institutional racism is being addressed - in some quarters more than others, but this hasn’t changed the private opinions of many in this country. In fact working class white men now identify as a victim group.
    Tidying up the surface doesn’t get to what lies beneath- and often seems to make that worse.

    Which is kind of my point about pitchforks for some twatty teenage tweets - when there are serious things that need addressing.

  • SE London

    I was in a former labour voting area of be England that was prob 99% white that subsequently voted strongly for Brexit (Copeland, Cumbria).

    I'd guess se London was always much more diverse and as a result less racist than the country as a whole.

  • Gauging the prevalence and degree of racism depends on what metric you’re using.

    Actual open racism

  • Actual open racism

    How about allowing brown people to drown in the Mediterranean?

  • I'd guess se London was always much more diverse and as a result less racist than the country as a whole.

    The reason the NF marched through New Cross in the 70s was because there was a local NF councillor elected and they wanted to inflame local tension.

    There’s much less of a binary now - when I was a kid it was still mostly white English/West Indian. The white working class have mostly gone, which has eased tensions tbh. Rich white gentrifiers and a wide range of immigrant groups make it feel polarised on class rather than ethnic lines.

  • Ok, you win.

    I’m not trying to win, discussion is good.

    The deaths in the Med are a stain on all our consciences.

  • This (now old) article horrified me­sep/09/we-had-to-fight-the-nf-but-can-lo­ndons-first-black-housing-co-op-survive-­latest-threat

    I had no idea things were that bad in SE London. Haven’t heard of any buses being diverted after dark due to race attacks lately so I hope that’s a sign of some improvement.

  • Thanks for that.

    My mate Diggory (RIP) built a self build on Drakefell rd. in Brockley, I’m not sure if this was the other scheme mentioned. I think so.

    Bitd anywhere SE beyond Lee/Lewisham/Forest Hill (Downham, Eltham, Catford, Grove Park, Bexley etc) was bandit country - growing up we called it Stabbing land.
    Although Deptford and New Cross where I lived had its own issues.

  • There aren’t NF pubs in Lewisham

    One or two in Southwark still amazingly.

    When I was a kid I remember NF and Blacks Out graffiti on the railway bridge in Ladywell though. Makes me feel sick to think about it.

    The Battle of Lewisham is always worth a look if you want to read a comparatively uplifting story about racism in Lewisham.

  • Can anyone explain the statistics / science behind this in more depth? Momentarily put me off a morning hill running sesh after I read it. Can't think of anyone in the cycling world with MND but there must be some?­12

    Motor neurone disease: Intense exercise increases risk, say scientists
    Regular and strenuous exercise increases the risk of motor neurone disease in people who are genetically vulnerable, say scientists.

    The team at the University of Sheffield said nobody should stop exercising as a result of their study.

    But they hope the findings could lead to ways of screening people who may be at higher risk and give tailored advice.

    Overall, around one in 300 people will develop motor neurone disease.

    It affects people's ability to move, talk and even breathe as the motor neurones that carry messages from the brain to the muscles fail. It can dramatically shorten people's lives.

    Who gets it and why is a complicated, poorly-understood mix of the genetic risk you are born with and other environmental factors that build up over a lifetime.

    There has long been a connection between exercise and the disease, but whether it was a genuine "cause" or just a "coincidence" has been the source of fierce debate.

    Studies in Italian footballers have suggested rates up to six times higher than normal. Athletes including Rob Burrow (rugby league), Stephen Darby (football) and Doddie Weir (rugby union) have all spoken openly about the disease.

  • The Battle of Lewisham

    My dad (local vicar) was there on Clifton Rise - they sent the NF packing. 🙂
    I was a child - but I remember the vibes.
    We had a black South African friend visiting us that day 😖

  • I have an absurd amount of pride in the borough in which I was born. Learning about things like the events on Clifton Rise from an early age are a big part of that I think.

  • Reading the essay linked in that article from 1999 (­undings/12_26.pdf) is pretty shocking, seeing as my wife grew up in that area at the time and we live near there now.

    I like to think things are quite a lot better than that now, but the article mentions all the same issues and causes that are still talked about today. The writer argues it's not just racism being handed down from parent to child, which makes it even more depressing IMO.

  • The New Cross house fire is another dark chapter in South London policing history.

  • Racism never went away, just moved out of London

    On this bit, I remember around mid to late 2000s it being bad up North East and pretty unpleasantly open. Always recall around the elections being particularly bad, most notable for me was the 'Vote BNP' spraypainted on the ground all along the walk to the football from the car park me and my dad used when going to Hartlepool games. The BNP ended up getting 2000 votes, 5% of the share. Other stuff like someone in my class at college saying 'all asian people look the same' then when called out by the teacher the student arguing his case that they do and it was bullshit that he was getting repremanded with support of a number of others in the class.

  • Is there anywhere/anything you'd recommend to look for more in the history of New Cross/Lewisham? Having lived here for the last year and the foreseeable future I'm quite interested to learn more about the local history after seeing little snippets whilst walking around.


    This blog has some good people’s history stuff.

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