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Wet track thread, for all your wet/damp/not quite dry discussions
 
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Old 3rd May 2012   #1
j.m.f
Wet track thread, for all your wet/damp/not quite dry discussions

Quote:
Originally Posted by brixtonbiker View Post
That was fun racing in the wet!
I left after the sprints.
What was the rest of the evening like?
how wet is wet? interested to hear to what level HH is allowing riding on.
thanks
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Old 3rd May 2012   #2
RPM
Quote:
Originally Posted by *m.f View Post
how wet is wet? interested to hear to what level HH is allowing riding on.
thanks
It's up to whoever is running the session or race meet.

Personally, when I do my risk assessment, I don't allow riders on a wet track (that's in the rain or with a wet surface which isn't drying) It's stupid IMO. Even crits get called off when it's wet sometimes, and that's on the flat with road bikes which are designed for riding outside.

Discretion and common sense are important, as a light summer shower isn't necessarily going to mean everyone has to go home, likewise it's naive to stand there in a March thunderstorm expecting to get on any time soon.

Last edited by RPM; 3rd May 2012 at 11:04.
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Old 3rd May 2012   #3
j.m.f
yep. same situation here.
you experience this annoying time between soaked and dry, where lines are still slippery, but tarmac grips. frustrating as hell when youre making the call.

look forward to seeing results from HH when they get up on BC site.
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Old 3rd May 2012   #4
BringMeMyFix
 
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Why the fuck don't they use paint with sand in it or something similar?
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Old 3rd May 2012   #5
j.m.f
Can I quote you verbatim when the next conversation about lines comes up?
Reaction might be fun
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Old 3rd May 2012   #6
Cooky
 
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The lines at HH (but not the cote d'azur) were sanded by the contractor after the problem was pointed out (and a little persuading was done). Looking like the volunteers at HH are going to do the cote d'azur themselves.
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Old 3rd May 2012   #7
tika
let me know when this happens as I want to help
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Old 3rd May 2012   #8
RPM
Quote:
Originally Posted by *m.f View Post
yep. same situation here.
you experience this annoying time between soaked and dry, where lines are still slippery, but tarmac grips. frustrating as hell when youre making the call.
.
No dry no ride, simple!

I'm struggling to see why some people are having such an issue with this, riding a wet track is effing dismal.
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Old 3rd May 2012   #9
j.m.f
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM View Post
No dry no ride, simple!

I'm struggling to see why some people are having such an issue with this, riding a wet track is effing dismal.
If there's no riding other than when dry- why did they sand the lines?
Sorry to keep carping on about it.
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Old 3rd May 2012   #10
Wiesia
 
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We rode last night and it drizzled all the way through the evening and the tarmac was wet. A lot of riders went home because they either thought it was going to be called off or didn't fancy riding on the wet tarmac. I guess they will decide on a case by case basis. They called off the last race but that was due to light not the wet surface.
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Old 3rd May 2012   #11
j.m.f
This is what I mean.there's obviously wet-soaking-presently raining.
Then there's degrees of damp right down to dry-perfect.
And that black tarmac is o.k in quite a lot of cases
I'm gonna build an outdoor track underneath a road flyover smooth concrete everywhere and it will perfect every day
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Old 3rd May 2012   #12
RPM
Quote:
Originally Posted by *m.f View Post
If there's no riding other than when dry- why did they sand the lines?
Sorry to keep carping on about it.
Because they were asked to. It's more about how quickly it dries after being wet, the lines were supposedly delaying this process. HH is busy and every hour counts. Personally I think the lines were/are a bit of a red herring, the cote dazur however was absolute rubbish when wet!

Like I said, depends who is running what. Racing can have different rules to training. Rider safety isn't something I like to gamble with but skilled riders can ride it easily when wet. Question is, why would you want to?

Last edited by RPM; 3rd May 2012 at 16:48.
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Old 3rd May 2012   #13
RPM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM View Post
skilled riders can ride it easily when wet. Question is, why would you want to?
Precious BC points at all costs?
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Old 3rd May 2012   #14
RPM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM View Post
Precious BC points at all costs?
Of course! Silly me.

As you were.
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Old 3rd May 2012   #15
j.m.f
Wow I started a thread without even knowing it.
But now RPM is having a discussion quoting himself.
What a strange day thought Alice
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Old 3rd May 2012   #16
BringMeMyFix
 
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You've gone soft, Rob. A lot of bearings are sealed these days, and even well greased cups and cones roll for miles and miles and miles in the wet without maintenance; there's fuck all road shite on the velodrome, so all the spray's relatively clean; there comes a point where indoor alternatives become demotivating/unappealling; there's a whole new skillset to be learnt for each set of riding conditions in the context of the weather (and you could argue that crosswinds are far more dangerous than a damp track with a moderate loss of traction - certainly less predictable); blah blah blah.

Don't get me wrong. There also comes a point where yet another ride in the damp/rain becomes equally unmotivating, whatever the setting, but if you can't embrace meteorological variety in this country, you're limiting your options.
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Old 3rd May 2012   #17
RPM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BringMeMyFix View Post
You've gone soft, Rob. A lot of bearings are sealed these days, and even well greased cups and cones roll for miles and miles and miles in the wet without maintenance; there's fuck all road shite on the velodrome,.
Like I said, enjoy. It's not for me as I can't afford to mistreat my DA hubs and BB as they're the only ones I've got.
It's not like that many races/sessions get rained off in a season. Relax, take it easy, have a day off once in a while...
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Old 3rd May 2012   #18
RPM
Quote:
Originally Posted by *m.f View Post
Wow I started a thread without even knowing it.
But now RPM is having a discussion quoting himself.
What a strange day thought Alice
I did it so as not to derail the league thread ;)
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Old 3rd May 2012   #19
BringMeMyFix
 
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I'm all for days off the bike. But sometimes circumstances dictate that the one chance you get to turn the pedals in anger during a week, or even a fortnight, happens on a damp day. If that opportunity were scuppered by a coach cancelling a session based on his own analysis, one built around his own over-protective attitude towards retrogrouch equipment, it'd be annoying.
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Old 3rd May 2012   #20
j.m.f
retrogrouch-ha! Yeah I clocked that. You could merge every post I ever made it wouldn't bother me its all meganet
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Old 3rd May 2012   #21
Cooky
 
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RPM's opinions do not reflect the views of the HH management as a whole. There are other coaches who, although equally concerned about the safety of the riders, do not want to unnecessarily cancel sessions when the track is perfectly grippy.

There is a whole spectrum of differing opinions from Rob's "no dry, no ride" to the other extreme of "if it's not currently raining it's dry enough".

Having ridden the track when it is completely wet (on track tyres pumped hard) and not felt any slipping (even when i started chucking the bike up and down the banking)- I'd say that it is probably fine to ride in the damp, but would want to be completely sure before coaching a session on it.

Official HH policy on this coming soon - in the mean time check twitter (@hernehillvel) for updates on whether each particular session is likely to go ahead.

Why people would want to ride on a wet track is another question, and up to them to decide for themselves

The lines were sanded down because they were slippery when damp but the track was not, now the lines and tarmac are equally slippery/unslippery. Had nothing to do with the lines preventing the track from drying faster.
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Old 3rd May 2012   #22
RPM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BringMeMyFix View Post
I'm all for days off the bike. But sometimes circumstances dictate that the one chance you get to turn the pedals in anger during a week, or even a fortnight, happens on a damp day. If that opportunity were scuppered by a coach cancelling a session based on his own analysis, one built around his own over-protective attitude towards retrogrouch equipment, it'd be annoying.
What a strange thing to say. A coach's own bicycle isn't relevant to his sessions. The coach is responsible for risk assessing the environment, if he feels there is a danger to the riders then he makes a call. The call isn't made on how wet the rider's bearings might get, it's made on an assessment of the rider's ability and how the conditions will impact the session.

My comments on my equipment were made regarding my personal feelings on (me) riding in the wet.
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Old 3rd May 2012   #23
RPM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooky View Post
RPM's opinions do not reflect the views of the HH management as a whole. There are other coaches who, although equally concerned about the safety of the riders, do not want to unnecessarily cancel sessions when the track is perfectly grippy.

There is a whole spectrum of differing opinions from Rob's "no dry, no ride" to the other extreme of "if it's not currently raining it's dry enough".

Having ridden the track when it is completely wet (on track tyres pumped hard) and not felt any slipping (even when i started chucking the bike up and down the banking)- I'd say that it is probably fine to ride in the damp, but would want to be completely sure before coaching a session on it.

Official HH policy on this coming soon - in the mean time check twitter (@hernehillvel) for updates on whether each particular session is likely to go ahead.

.
Please see my comments regarding assessment of conditions with a bearing on rider ability. A blanket 'official' policy isn't worth jack shit tbh as your anecdotal evidence (as an experienced) rider will not be of relevance when coaching a group of 1st timers. At the other end of the scale, sprinters doing standing starts isn't going to work on a wet surface either.

Cooky's opinions do not reflect the views of HH management as a whole.

Last edited by RPM; 3rd May 2012 at 19:07.
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Old 3rd May 2012   #24
RPM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooky View Post

Why people would want to ride on a wet track is another question, and up to them to decide for themselves

.
Actually mate it's not. It's up to those responsible for the rider's welfare during the session/race meet. Up to riders only after that decision has been taken.
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Old 3rd May 2012   #25
BringMeMyFix
 
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I'm going to refer all future wet riding decisions to you. I want you to take into consideration:

- possibility of stubborn staining to any non-black areas of lycra kit
- sponginess of cork bar tape, and how that might impact on eventual wrinkling of the skin on my fingers
- ph balance of precipitation and its effect on longevity of tyre casings
- likelihood that unreachable grit particles will get in the little creases of the leather edging on the underside of my saddle
- detailed float assessment of cleats with extra H2O lubrication
- risk of mildew on my sprinter's deckchair whilst stored in a damp and folded state
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Old 3rd May 2012   #26
RPM
I expected a more thorough set of criteria from you. Disappointing. I'll do a spreadsheet for you.
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Old 3rd May 2012   #27
BringMeMyFix
 
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Don't judge me with your establishment rules.
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Old 3rd May 2012   #28
Cooky
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM View Post
Please see my comments regarding assessment of conditions with a bearing on rider ability. A blanket 'official' policy isn't worth jack shit tbh as your anecdotal evidence (as an experienced) rider will not be of relevance when coaching a group of 1st timers. At the other end of the scale, sprinters doing standing starts isn't going to work on a wet surface either.

Cooky's opinions do not reflect the views of HH management as a whole.
It will be guidance as to what riders can expect the decisions to be for various sessions (rider ability assosciated with particular sessions)- not my idea, but seems like a good idea to me.

The main reason that i posted anything at all is because someone could easily read what you had written - assumed that as you do a lot at the track that was the official line - then decide not to turn up, even though the session still runs as the coach for that session deems it safe.

Final decisions will obviously lie with the coach for that session - but some guidance for riders on what to expect would probably be quite useful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM View Post
Actually mate it's not. It's up to those responsible for the rider's welfare during the session/race meet. Up to riders only after that decision has been taken.
Whether riders want to ride in the wet or not is nothing to do with the coach/commisaire - whether they are allowed/advised to is. You've misunderstood the point I was making.
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Old 3rd May 2012   #29
RPM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooky View Post

The main reason that i posted anything at all is because someone could easily read what you had written - assumed that as you do a lot at the track that was the official line - then decide not to turn up, even though the session still runs as the coach for that session deems it safe.
In as much as they could also read someone else's breezy affirmations, assume they can ride in any weather and turn up only to be disappointed.
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Old 3rd May 2012   #30
RPM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooky View Post
Whether riders want to ride in the wet or not is nothing to do with the coach/commisaire - whether they are allowed/advised to is. You've misunderstood the point I was making.
Sure, I see what you're saying.

Regarding any 'official' line, I think it's difficult to impose that on something which is so changeable over such a short time as to be of any benefit.
Once the warmer weather starts it'll be largely irrelevant anyway. There are many other things far more deserving of thought and discussion in any case.
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Old 4th May 2012   #31
adman
 
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So will the track be wet tomorrow? I might dust off the track bike thats been in its bike bag since the world masters last year.

That should cause it to rain...

:-)
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Old 4th May 2012   #32
coachhouse
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM View Post
...A blanket 'official' policy isn't worth jack shit tbh...
I think we should establish if a policy isn't worth jack shit or it is worth jack shit...
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Old 4th May 2012   #33
RPM
Agreed!

Actually folks, a very clever policy has been formulated which isn't 'blanket'. So watch out for the new HHV website coming soon.
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Old 4th May 2012   #34
BringMeMyFix
 
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At least a big blanket would keep the track dry.
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Old 4th May 2012   #35
j.m.f
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM View Post
Agreed!

Actually folks, a very clever policy has been formulated which isn't 'blanket'. So watch out for the new HHV website coming soon.
You bet. Very clever is the way forward.
Have they got a webcam on the track- always feel that would be useful addition, like a roof might be.
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Old 4th May 2012   #36
JC
The webcam will be reinstated very soon. The main reason it was taken down was that Tarmac's contractors didn't like being filmed while they were resurfacing. Not sure what they didn't want to be seen doing.

Anyway, a webcam wont really help with weather conditions. Tarmac looks darker when its damp, but its still ridable until its soaked. You can't really tell that without being there.
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Old 5th May 2012   #37
hoops
The track was pretty wet for the start of the Rolla open meet today, and it was fine!
Hopefully my hubs & BB wont have desintergrated into thin air by monday night training though....
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Old 9th May 2012   #38
erikjonsson
 
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all weather surface track innit
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Old 10th May 2012   #39
hoops
There was a group of ducks hanging out in track centre tonight....
This weather is getting out of hand.
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Old 10th May 2012   #40
RPM
The ducks arrived on Sunday for the sprint session. They had thier own deckchairs but couldn't find anywhere dry to pitch them
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Old 10th May 2012   #41
hoops
I feel their pain.
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Old 10th May 2012   #42
RPM
If they're there this Sunday they are going to be served with noodles for lunch.
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Old 10th May 2012   #43
hoops
I'll bring my carbon sprinters chopsticks specially.
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Old 10th May 2012   #44
Oliver Schick
 
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Do they do keirins or are they all the same colour?
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Old 10th May 2012   #46
j.m.f
Go perfect with my Campag corkscrew
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Old 12th May 2012   #47
Cooky
 
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As promised: http://www.hernehillvelodrome.com/se...eather_policy/
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Old 13th May 2012   #48
j.m.f
Ta for that.
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Old 14th May 2012   #49
RPM
Though you will want to do your own risk assessment to come up with something for BCC as its a very different track and will be more susceptible to slipping due to the steeper banking and tighter turns.
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Old 14th May 2012   #50
j.m.f
indeed,
the evidence so far from where Im standing is that a fifteen stone man can ride safely on our damp track, between lines.
Think that the definitions on the HH one are good, but as you say may not apply completely
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