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No-Fork project, bicycle geometry hacked
 
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Old 29th March 2012   #1
No Fork
No-Fork project, bicycle geometry hacked

Yesterday the second patent application was filed so I thought its about time I show a bit of what Im working on....



The romantic story behind the bike is that my previous build was lacking a proper crown piece. What I really wanted was the headtube to visually continue down to the wheel. That is not possible of course so I set out to fight my way around this problem with asymmetrical rims and tires and the lot...

The real story behind the bike is that from the beginning I got signs that this is possible if you get the geometry right. Now, after some 10 or so builds and modifications, measurements, more accurate measurements, gallons of beer and even more sleepless nights I finally am round to the insight in how to make a bicycle with angled wheels, a frame build in a single plane (attention aerowheenies) and still ride like a "normal" bike.

The bike in the photo is the current dev. proto, so it has some strange bits and pieces on, and some bits are missing... but it the the worlds first ever proper running No-Fork bike.
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Old 29th March 2012   #2
Mechamorgan
 
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Originally Posted by No Fork View Post
it the the worlds first ever proper running No-Fork bike.
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Old 29th March 2012   #3
Mechamorgan
 
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I'm only messing about. Looks interesting!
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Old 29th March 2012   #4
dickidonor
 
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do you have a shot front on / head on ? can't work out how the wheels line up and how the bike doesn't crab along the street sideways ?
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Old 29th March 2012   #5
Landslidedonor
 
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I'm reading this as "the frame is in a single plane, this means the wheels are offset from the plane, but are placed at a tangent so that the tyre contact patch is in the same plane as the frame". Is that the right interpretation?
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Old 29th March 2012   #6
dickidonor
 
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how does it ride ?
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Old 29th March 2012   #7
Smallfurrydonor
 
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Thats crying out for belt drive.

Especially as currently the brake caliper is likely to get covered in chain oil.

Interesting though.
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Old 29th March 2012   #8
Smallfurrydonor
 
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Also, I've just built an asymmetric lefty wheel. For a modified Cannondale lefty. As part of a fatbike. The fork leg is moved further to the left by use of custom clamps. Then you dish the wheel back to the right. Before the custom clamps were availible, a guy simply dished the wheel for clearance. So the center of the tyre was no longer directly under the head tube. Reports were, that it handled OK.
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Old 29th March 2012   #9
No Fork
Here is one head on. Photoshopped a tiny bit, I dont want to give away too much about the geo yet.



It rides like a normal bike.
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Old 29th March 2012   #10
No Fork
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Originally Posted by Smallfurry View Post
Thats crying out for belt drive.
My thoughts exactly, but it turned out there are some problems round the corner with belt drive.
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Old 29th March 2012   #11
_dan_
 
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I can't believe that rides like a normal bike
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Old 29th March 2012   #12
bmx_fred
 
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Originally Posted by _dan_ View Post
I can't believe that this is worth it at all
why do this? if it's for aesthetic reasons then I'm sorry, you have not made a beautiful bike imo. If it's for practical reasons, i'm not sure there are any. If it's just because you wanted to see if you could and challenge yourself then good on you, but otherwise....
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Old 29th March 2012   #13
nutsjesmoardonor
 
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This is great, always love to see dudes try new things, even if it fails (which I hope this doesn't). Keep up the good work.
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Old 29th March 2012   #14
dickidonor
 
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tight clearances
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Old 29th March 2012   #15
über_grüber
 
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Revolutionary.
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Old 29th March 2012   #16
lolabelledonor
 
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That reminds me of
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Old 29th March 2012   #17
lolabelledonor
 
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hahah I was few seconds too late
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Old 29th March 2012   #18
über_grüber
 
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Srs though-bike wheels are not supposed to take much lateral pressure and I doubt axles/hubs are designed to either... won't you end up with mechanical issues further down the line?
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Old 29th March 2012   #19
No Fork
The challenge was a big part of it yes, but there were some practical reasons too.

The design-constraint of having two wheels in the same plane is out of the way now! And id like to invite bike-designers, framebuilders, anyone really to imagine how this new technology can be applied in .... flat folding bikes... cargo bikes with better cargo space... wooden bikes....

The bike you see is what I made of it because I like it that way, its is not meant to show of the advantages. The technology can be put to use in other designs.
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Old 29th March 2012   #20
No Fork
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Originally Posted by über_grüber View Post
Srs though-bike wheels are not supposed to take much lateral pressure and I doubt axles/hubs are designed to either... won't you end up with mechanical issues further down the line?
Ive discussed it with a mayor spoke manufacturer, they didnt see a problem with it. The bearing are like the ones used in car wheel bearings. No problems there either, gives you an amazingly smooth ride!

And the labor bike is one beauty! unmatchable! (its wheels are in a conventional set-up)
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Old 29th March 2012   #21
No Fork
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Originally Posted by Tiswas View Post
I would discuss it with an engineer, and do some analysis on the forces at play.
I am the engineer :-)

Im in touch with these guys and they thought it was OK.
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Old 29th March 2012   #22
malandrodonor
i put my front wheel in wrong once. it ended up like that. rode it for a couple of weeks.

if you need any mechanical advice...

Quote:
Originally Posted by dicki View Post


tight clearances
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Old 29th March 2012   #23
Smallfurrydonor
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No Fork View Post
My thoughts exactly, but it turned out there are some problems round the corner with belt drive.
I have the original version on a 29er. Works without fault. Although the tension needed expliots the shitness of my tugnuts.

The centertrack is even better.

Having an oiled chain next to your brake caliper and disc is going to cause problems.
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Originally Posted by nutsjesmoar View Post
This is great, always love to see dudes try new things, even if it fails (which I hope this doesn't). Keep up the good work.
+1
Quote:
Originally Posted by über_grüber View Post
Srs though-bike wheels are not supposed to take much lateral pressure and I doubt axles/hubs are designed to either... won't you end up with mechanical issues further down the line?
Bike wheels experiance lateral forces regardless of hub design.
If you watch some lefty demos. Then you will see that the oversized axle more than compensates for the lack of a second dropout to clamp to.
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Old 29th March 2012   #24
Smallfurrydonor
 
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Not english but you get the idea. (ignore the suspension related parts, and look at the stiffness)

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Old 29th March 2012   #25
No Fork
Very good and instructive video. The lefty is one good piece of engineering.

Thanks for all the comments!
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Old 29th March 2012   #26
Smallfurrydonor
 
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Originally Posted by No Fork View Post
Very good and instructive video. The lefty is one good piece of engineering.

Thanks for all the comments!
The lefty works for two reasons.

1) big fat axles.
2) clamping above and below the headtube.

Your design simply has no crown. I'm assuming stiffness comes from tube diameter. Might be and idea to go with a 1 1/2" steerer. Depends on how stiff you need it to be I guess.
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Old 29th March 2012   #27
andy.wdonor
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by über_grüber View Post
Srs though-bike wheels are not supposed to take much lateral pressure and I doubt axles/hubs are designed to either... won't you end up with mechanical issues further down the line?
Really?


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Old 29th March 2012   #28
Bobbo
 
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This thread is fascinating! I just wish I had the required knowledge to participate in the discussion rather than lurking on the sidelines.
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Old 29th March 2012   #29
Carabo
 
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Originally Posted by Bobbo View Post
wish I had the required knowledge to participate in the discussion
I can tell you there's plenty of folk lacking the required knowledge discussing in this thread :P Doesn't matter really, does it? Don't hold back if you're curious.
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Old 29th March 2012   #30
Bobbo
 
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Well then, my biggest concern would be the tyres. Because the wheels are angled the contact patches would be off centre from where I assume they are designed to contact with the road. Would this not lead to the cumulative failure of the ply on one side of the tyre due to repetitive stress on that side (especially if you ignored the advice of Mr Scoble and routinely leant to corner)?
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Old 29th March 2012   #31
adoubletap
 
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Fucking magnets!
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Old 29th March 2012   #32
andy.wdonor
 
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Originally Posted by adoubletap View Post
Fucking magnets!
Don't, you'll end up with a bipolar cock.
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Old 29th March 2012   #33
Smallfurrydonor
 
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Originally Posted by Bobbo View Post
Well then, my biggest concern would be the tyres. Because the wheels are angled the contact patches would be off centre from where I assume they are designed to contact with the road. Would this not lead to the cumulative failure of the ply on one side of the tyre due to repetitive stress on that side (especially if you ignored the advice of Mr Scoble and routinely leant to corner)?
Could be a good idea to use bi-directional tyres, and turn them every now and again for even wear. But its not far off center.

I'm not convinced steering feel will be the same both left and right. As the coaste effect would be different. I'd be happy to be proved wrong though.
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Old 29th March 2012   #34
Black Rainbow Project
I haven't read every word on here, but can someone explain in a nutshell why having the wheels in line with the frame and using a single sided fork and rear end wouldn't be better all round? It's got to be a way better way of doing it. Besides the aesthetics of having the frame in line, which in my opinion is offset by the angled wheels I can't see any reason as to why this is a better idea?

Rob English's Righty looks a far nicer way of achieving a single sided set up but without the wheels being angled...and it's not like the couple of inches of fork crown spoils the look.

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Old 29th March 2012   #35
Smallfurrydonor
 
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I love everything about that English. Its even my favourate colour.
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Old 29th March 2012   #36
whatok
 
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would it be possible to ride this no-handed?
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Old 29th March 2012   #37
Jeez
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Originally Posted by Black Rainbow Project View Post
it's not like the couple of inches of fork crown spoils the look.

Edit 2 - [This bit is about the post quoted above!]

No it's the fact that it isn't symetrical and looks like shit that spoils the look.

I REALLY cannot see the point. Horrid aesthetics, pointless, pointless pointless.

Each to their own of course...

Edit 3 - [This bit is about the original post / OP's bike design!]

EDIT - actually a serious potential problem... one advantage of having the wheel between forks / chainstays, and dead centre between parts of frame is that it minimises the chances of hitting your foot or leg on the wheel - lean it out and have it unprotected surely increases the risk?

Last edited by Jeez; 29th March 2012 at 13:44.
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Old 29th March 2012   #38
Black Rainbow Project
You realise the English has both wheels in line with the frame right?
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Old 29th March 2012   #39
Jeez
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Originally Posted by Black Rainbow Project View Post
You realise the English has both wheels in line with the frame right?
You realise that the English is not symetrical right?

Edit - my edit above was re: OP's bike, whereas my post was about the English.

Edit 2 - saying that my edit above does kinda partly relate to the English, albeit the point is stronger with OPs bike.
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Old 29th March 2012   #40
STE5
 
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I'm no engineer... but wouldn't there be a problem with the OP bike when taking sharp left hand corners quickly? What I mean is; there's only so far you can lean over, and this design reduces that (when turning left) by the amount the wheel is pre-leaning.
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Old 29th March 2012   #41
Black Rainbow Project
@Jeez
It just seemed strange to link to the pic of the english then talk about wheels not being centred in line with the frame when they are on the English, so I don't quite see how it relates?
The fact that it isn't symetrical is pretty obvious...It's one sided.
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Old 29th March 2012   #42
Smallfurrydonor
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STE5 View Post
I'm no engineer... but wouldn't there be a problem with the OP bike when taking sharp left hand corners quickly? What I mean is; there's only so far you can lean over, and this design reduces that (when turning left) by the amount the wheel is pre-leaning.
If its fixed. You'd have massive pedal strike before that became an issue.

Last edited by Smallfurry; 29th March 2012 at 13:40.
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Old 29th March 2012   #43
Bobbo
 
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How does one strick a pedal?
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Old 29th March 2012   #44
Jeez
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Rainbow Project View Post
@Jeez
It just seemed strange to link to the pic of the english then talk about wheels not being centred in line with the frame when they are on the English, so I don't quite see how it relates?
The fact that it isn't symetrical is pretty obvious...It's one sided.
My apologies - my post was very unclear, replying to a specific post then adding an edit about the OP with no warning!
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Old 29th March 2012   #45
Sanddancerdonor
 
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Are the gyroscopic forces in play not going to be pulling the wheels to the vertical, making you feel like you're riding in a crosswind the whole time?

Belgian Classics training bike for non-Belgian pros? There's your market!
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Old 29th March 2012   #46
miro_odonor
 
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Interesting stuff... Not putting a belt drive on the LHS would be missing a trick.

Another successful single forked bike...



^ the Giant Halfway folder bike designed by Mike Burrows.
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Old 29th March 2012   #47
miro_odonor
 
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Originally Posted by Sanddancer View Post
Are the gyroscopic forces in play not going to be pulling the wheels to the vertical, making you feel like you're riding in a crosswind the whole time?

Belgian Classics training bike for non-Belgian pros? There's your market!
Could be used for NascarEffect™ in the velodrome?
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Old 29th March 2012   #48
Landslidedonor
 
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Like the UCI would ever allow it.
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Old 29th March 2012   #49
31t®umdonor
 
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so......if you leant only slightly left going around a wet corner / manhole, you'll be on your arse.

also can you turn the tyres around, halfway through their shortened life?
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Old 29th March 2012   #50
31t®umdonor
 
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i also think, you could have saved money on the patent......the design is pretty safe (in that aspect)
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