London Fixed-gear and Single-speed SJS Cycles

There have been a number of tragic rider-down threads recently, many involving HGVs. I have been left feeling angry and sad after hearing of these incidents which sometimes sound so preventable.
I am sure I’m not the only one who has had a tear in their eye especially after reading posts from family and love ones of those who have died.
On the latest thread (http://www.londonfgss.com/thread24674.html) some members have indicated they intend to write to Boris Johnson (Major of London) to try to raise the profile of these incidents to try and improve the safety of cyclists on our streets (e.g. http://www.londonfgss.com/post785732-65.html)

I too want to confront our politicians about these issues but it struck me that maybe a coordinated response from this forum would achieve much more. It is my feeling that to achieve this coordination we may be need to decide on what exactly we want to draw attention to and what we want Boris to do about it.

I have UTFS and the most relevant thread seems to be this: http://www.londonfgss.com/thread23108.html

Instead of repeating all of the arguments contained in that thread I propose that this thread be used simply to facilitate a coordinated email or letter campaign directed at the Major.

So what do we want?..... A petition, a standardised email/letter for each member to send separately or just clarity on the stats and facts so everyone can draft their own letter

And what issues do we focus on? ….. lack of coverage/debate about cyclist deaths, the dangers of HGVs, traffic enforcement, motorist awareness, poor cycle lane design, cyclist awareness etc etc

But of course everyone is an individual, so maybe it’s best if everyone just does their own thing and writes to BJ (if they want) with their own thoughts.What do you think LFGSS?............ Feel free to kick my idea into the weeds!

If you want something to happen, you need to ask for something that they aren't doing. If you don't then all you get is a response assuring you that it is a top priority and that they are doing all they can to improve matters for everyone.

I think that it would be too easy to ignore the weight of feeling behind this if any standardised template is used. The same goes for petitions or any other tick-the-box-and-forget-about-it activity.

If, however, there were a concerted effort from a large body of people, each sending individual messages, then provided the facts and figures used were consistent, I cannot see them just being filed away.

A coordinated response has to stand the best chance of success, .

There has to be such a spread of feeling, it is time politicians were forced into action- firstly, we need a clear & concise objective - clearly reducing road deaths & accidents is the gaol, but what measures are we suggesting?

Individual messages with a consistent appeal is a good idea, possibly combined with some more direct methods?

A list of all the recent incidents would be useful to paste in. Oliver / Charlie - does the LCC keep anything like this?

For my own two cents worth, you want to do something that is very clear and very public. Some time ago, under the Thatcher government someone took exception to the rising levels of unemployment and highlighted the figures on a building over the river from the houses of parliament in order to embaress the prime minister. That person was the Mayor of London (Red Ken) and he was successful, the Conservatives were embaressed.

By all means send letters but contrary to Tiswas' opinion, they can be filed away, very easily if the London council is doing anything at all about the matter and they are. What you need is the kind of support that is unignorable. What is really needed here is a well marketed campaign with a clear plan of action and a result in mind. You can't just go up to a council and say we don't like it, make it stop because they can't and therefore don't have to try.

has every one seen this thread?

http://www.londonfgss.com/thread24553.html

What about boris almost getting knocked out by a hgv himself and inculding that?

I agree personal messages will always carry more weight than a standardised one or a petition,

I think it is essential to keep the message consistant and the facts/stats accurate.

I think a coordinated approach is important. Maybe if we encouraged people to write a personal letter to Boris we could collect them up and deliver them in bulk during one of these protest rides.

A list of incidents with links to rider down threads on different forums to show how people feel?

You could, but that would be a flash in the pan protest. It lasts for a day, there's a statement from the campaigners, a bit of handwringing from the politicians and that's it. A couple days later, something else is news and all if forgotten. If a campaign isn't well organised and sustained it may have the best of intentions but ultimately will be good for fuck all. The only way to do this is to play the long game. Question is, are you prepared to make that kind of commitment or will your desire for change wane by the closing credits of Neighbours?

My motivation for posting here wasn't to put myself forward as a campaign leader! However, I have had a growing feeling that I could be doing more to raise awareness of these issues. I noticed a few people were thinking about writing to Boris and I thought I would raise the possibility that these could be coordinated to greater affect and it seems I am not the only one http://www.londonfgss.com/post786144-92.html

Fair enough, you don't have to take up the mantle of campaign leader to make a difference. But if there were a campaign, you absolutely should be in it for the long haul. Doing one easy thing isn't enough to change anything, there needs to be commitment and occaisionally sacrifice. I'm tired of seeing these one shot Earth Day style campaigns that people buy into to make themselves feel better about something. They end up meaning nothing.

I think it would be better to get behind an existing campaign, as mentioned in my previous post. They are not going to ban HGV in London and so people may as well back campaigns getting both drivers and cyclists more aware and better trained. There is also a lot that could be done such as getting wheel guards fitted as standard as this reduces the chance of people getting pulled under.....

sorry, previous post was in another thread , I am talking about this http://www.lcc.org.uk/index.asp?PageID=1399.

Maybe if everyone lobbied Boris to push this through it might be taken up by more Boroughs

I am in total agreement with you. And I like to think I am of strong enough character not to require another 'Rider Down' thread to remind me of my responsibilities as part of this community

That LCC campaign is missing the target.
These women are not being killed by professional lorry drivers working for transport companies. They are being killed by part-time lorry drivers in construction industry dumper trucks, or council bin wagons

As to what we ask for, I suggest we ask for these vehicles to be banned from London streets between the hours of 7am and 7pm

council bin wagon drivers are on the list of people getting training as are any other drivers who work for the council

I have a question. What, exactly, do we want to be done? I realise we would like to reduce traffic fatalities, but what steps can the government take to help with this.

Please note, I am not meaning to imply the gov't can't do anything, nor am I meaning to imply that these posts are all empty rhetoric. I am actually curious and would like to know what some of the ideas are. Because, if they sound like good ideas (or feasible ideas), then I'll sign on and send my letter or do whatever else.

But as it stands, I'm not so sure I understand what we're after.

I guess in a nut shell you either want a total HGV ban in the week or better training for drivers and cyclists. I cannot see how a ban would work, how would you deal with rubbish and basic services? In which case its pretty clear to me that safety mearures such as wheel guards should be mandatory in the city , councils and industry should be mandated to train drivers and cycling awareness training should be provided for free for cyclists.

I agree about an HGV ban. Although nice (in some ways), I cannot see that being considered a viable option by the gov't. It would hurt the (already ailing) construction biz, too, I'd think (in addition to the stuff you mentioned).

Training sounds like a great idea. Hell, why not also mandate it for cyclists, too? I know there are training programs out there for cyclists, but maybe making them free (and mandatory) would help. Or not, because then you'd have to enforce it. Training for drivers makes sense. And maybe a lifetime lorry-driving ban for anyone caught driving one who isn't quaified/certificated? Maybe a bit draconian, though.

I think its a very good idea to write a letter with as many signatures as possible. There are already more than 6000 of us on this forum. And that Boris was almost knocked out by a HGV may help.
Problem I see is that one of the main reasons there are so many HGV's on the road is the building of the Olympic Park. I personally don't give a shit about the Olympics if it can safe just one cyclist but its obviously a prestigious Government project.

The only thing is how many training courses have you been on where you didn't want to go and your company said you had to? You see it like a bit of a jolly - don't pay attention - forget what was said.
I've seen a lot more HGV/PV's that have been retro fitted with large stickers on the left corner of doors, audible warnings and blind spot mirrors etc. I think this is a more cost effective/useful approach, Most drivers would say they already know how to drive, maybe these aids would make it easier to look out for cyclists - Does the government have an incentive to retro fit vehicles?

a petition would be great but a clear manifesto is essential.......we should then deliver it in style.....i say we get a truck and weld a bike to signify every person thats died in the last few year to it, paint it white and drive it to the majors office followed by a thousand cyclists.

I've cycled across London daily for 13 years and I swear this is getting worse......

Or drive it right into the Majors office...

+1. Special mirrors for HGV's are probably the most cost effective, feasible way of reducing road deaths.

A total ban would present difficulties - refuse services at night might be inconvenient, but they are not impossible. And builders can get up earlier and leave later.

Unworkable or not it should be on the table even if it is only as a stick to force the buggers to comply with the mirrors, extra training and side guards. Maybe also proximity sensors, such as you have when parking modern cars, or even cameras giving a clear view of the cyclist-path on the left. It should all be on the table and the lorry operators should be forced to fit as many as practical, or face a total daylight ban.

And a big hard-hitting ad campaign, aimed fairly and squarely at female cyclists, in all the women's magazines (the ones that do the "hey, buy a bike and some pretty summer dresses" features), on TV during all the shows and channels (e.g. Living TV) women like watching saying "stay the fuck away from the inside of trucks"

And another aimed at london truck drivers - saying watch out for cyclists when turning left. Fit more mirrors, open your nearside window and go slowly.

Is it just cyclists? I wonder how many pedestrians and motorcyclists trucks have also killed in London?

This part of the reason I started this thread. I wanted to write a letter to Boris about all these deaths but like you didn't quite know what to say..


Boris keeps on going on about wanting to increase the numbers of cyclists and I guess he has a budget for his policy. Petitioning him to assign some of that money to produce these sorts of ad campaigns might not be beyond the realms of possibility.

On a slightly different tack, why not suggest a question for Mayor's Question Time?

One area being overlooked here is how many of these accidents were caused by the cyclist putting themselves in a dangerous situation in the first place. I don't know what, if any, data is available but I suspect the answer is a fair portion.

Yes, there is a case for making drivers more aware of cyclists but I'm equally certain that there's a strong case for more training for cyclists. I'm not advocating making it compulsory but certainly readily and freely available and well publicised.

+1
the amount of people i see heading into the abyss with their helmets and hybrids down the lhs of big trucks scares the shit out of me.

When I used to work with amnesty international, we had a standard typed letter that everyone would rewrite by hand and sign separately. I think proper mail (as opposed to email) makes a big difference purely because it's something physical, and the handwriting just makes it seem like you care more.

I don't see larger/special mirrors making much of a difference to be honest. Shit, careless drivers are still gonna be shit, careless drivers. Most of these incidents seem to be on bends, corners, blindspots where there driver is in some kind of rush to get through to a straight. Once they have that mindset of 'I need to crack on with my journey/get away from the build up of traffic' that's it, they're only focused on getting from A-B as quickly as possible, that's just the way it is driving in London, not just for HGVs

I don't see how so many of these accidents occur its so obvious that you should be nowhere near trucks and buses at intersections. Maybe a ban on filtering in traffic and strong enforcement is the only way to stop people diving up the inside of large vehicles at intersections and on bends. Obviously this idea is stupid, and there is no way you will find me waiting in a que of traffic for some half awake driver to crush me from behind, but still the amount of bad riding I see every day just astounds me. I think cycling in London can be a very safe and fun activity, even in peak hour and even with HGV around, it takes a bit of experience and concentration to be safe though.

As for the ban on HGVs, you would be amazed at how much effort is put into keeping trucks of the roads during peak hour already. I've worked on some major inner city construction sites and I can assure you that the last thing you want is your concrete trucks stuck in traffic, so all our pours always started early in the day or late at night.

Didn't Boris cut the funding to half toward cycling in London?

That's pretty fucking patronising.

http://www.movingtargetzine.com/arti...ndon-1999-2004

I doubt he intended it to sound patrionising, generally from what I understand, female cyclists tend to cycle safety (safety in term of following the highway code etc.), and seeing those green line approaching the ASL did little to prevent their untimely death.

I doubt it's the fact they're women, just the ASL gave them the illusion that it's safe to undertake vehicles when approaching the ASL;

There's a bit of a contradiction there between 'female cyclists tend to cycle safety' and 'I doubt it's the fact they're women'. Have a read of the stats on that link and it's not so easy to generalise/stereotype as all that.

No slight on either of you; it's a commonly held belief, but I think it's a fairy lazy one – and one which feeds in to a stereotype of females as risk-averse etc etc.

you're right it's probably a stereotype, perhaps I just somehow only see females cyclists rarely jump the red light as oppose to the other sexes who appear to be more of an RLJ frequencer (and I always tend to stop at red lights thus being able to observe this).

I stop at red lights in the main, but I am also a very assertive cyclist in general.

I know that some women are nervous cyclists – but not all of us are, and keeping on saying it somehow perpetuates the myth that cycing is masculine somehow, which is obviously bollocks… :)

That link is interesting as to the HGV stats which are often repeated.

I know it ain't perfect but it's the best solution on the table. A total ban during certain hours is just not practical, what with the olympics coming up, also the construction industry has been particularly badly hit by the recession. Cycle training is a nice idea but also equally impractical, there are millions and millions of bikes - getting everyone trained up would be a logistical nightmare.

Ahh don't worry, I'm just fuelling the well known myth that men have penis envy and need to risk their inept live by RLJing.

Ha!

Plus several million.

Fortunately I only do my ridiculously small field of statistics/completely biased because of the variance in experience in cyclists/totally unnhelpful because it puts women off cycling and makes everything worse rant at the pub and try very hard to keep it off the forum.

But really. ffs.

i get the feeling that lots of these crashes happen because people ride into/get caught in the blindspot. It doesn't matter how careful a driver you are, if as a cyclist you can't see the drivers face in his mirror, he can't see you. Yes i think a way needs to be found so that people don't cycle down the lhs of trucks but if at the same time we can mandate the reduction/elimination of a trucks blind spot both efforts combined will save lives.

And yes, careless drivers will always be a menace but the more that can be done to reduce the possible "i didn't see them" style excuses will force motorists to get better.
Maybe i'm being optimistic but i have to believe there is something we can do to make the roads safer, because frankly the number of rider down threads is beginning to really scare and depress me.

You need to enforce the advanced stop line, on the spot fines for cars creeping into the ASL cycle safe area.

Here is a money generating idea for TFL/local councils:

hahah YES tynan that is gold.

why the fuck not?

Yes it probably is. But experienced cyclists don't tend to be the ones killed. From what I see it's mostly the novices on their new dutch bikes who trust in cycle lanes rather than their own wits. When Cosmo or whatever does another 'cycling tribes' article and another load of their readers take up cycling for the first time in years I want there to be proper road safety advice - not "wearing a helmet and hi-vis will make you invulnerable"

Hmmm on Friday evening on the way home from work I caught a police car waiting at the traffic lights three quaters parked in the ASL at the junction of Royal College St and Kentish Town Rd. Not a very good example to set I would have thought !