London Fixed-gear and Single-speed

What should be done? More cycle paths? Cyclists allowed to RLJ? What are peoples thoughts? I feel the size of this forum could weld a lot of power if we put our heads together.

Kill all the cunts

I could tell you but it's a secret…

Teach a good 80% of cyclists in london how to not ride like a tool might help.

I think you'd need to change something to make it safer.

this is the biggest thing. I truly think that people need to go riding with a "coach" for a couple of weeks before going out on their own in metropolitan areas. I do this with all of my friends that i get on bikes. I'm watching how the ride, and pointing out dangerous things they are doing. It really allows them to quckly learn how to ride in traffic competently. A lot of what it takes to ride in traffic seems completely counterintuitive at first.

the other thing is that there need to be legitimate cycling routes where cars are very limited, cyclists have right of way, go signals, etc. I'm talking whole streets need to be blocked off. Not just bike lanes. Would be good for the community, anyway.

this gets a little sappy, but still it's kind of a good representation of a dream i often have.
http://www.streetfilms.org/archives/...tation-ethics/

Riding at 2:00am I feel pretty safe. Perhaps clear the roads of all non-commercial traffic during the hours of 8:00am-7:00pm.

I was going to start a new thread but this seems as good a place to post my recent observations.

Yesterday evening I had the misfortune of being stuck in some very heavy and slow moving traffic on Clapham Road and I have to say I was truly appalled at the way some cyclists were riding, literally putting their lives at risk in their rush to get home. I actually saw 2 VERY near misses right under my nose and in the space of 5 minutes, both involving a right turning vehicle and a cyclist filtering recklessly fast up the inside of stationary traffic.

I was driving a Transit van and heading west towards the Common, roughly at about 7pm. On both occasions I was, and had been for some time, stationary and with a turning immediately in front of me to my left. Also I had stopped in a manner that left the junctions clear so that traffic coming from the opposite direction could turn into the junctions and traffic wishing to turn right from the junctions could do so too.

Both near misses occurred as a result of a vehicle turning right into the path of a fast moving bike filtering up the inside of me. The first bike, I estimate, was doing in the order of 20mph and only stopped with inches to spare after a very scary back wheel in the air type heavy braking session. How he didn’t go over the bars I’ll never know. On both occasions the drivers of the right turning vehicle spotted the bikes and stopped also.

What appalled me so was the dangerous way some cyclists were dealing with major hazards. OK so a junction on it’s own is not a major hazard but surely becomes one when there is a risk of traffic turning into these junctions across their path, when undertaking at speed and when 50% of their view of the junction is obscured by a large panel van. Yet these riders were not slowing down at all.

Reading about the daily accidents involving cyclists saddens me. I know careless drivers cause many but, given what I witnessed last night, I suspect a fair few are in fact the cyclists’ fault. So, come on guys and girls, put your thinking heads on before setting out on your journeys. Always assume someone will turn into your path and prepare to stop accordingly.

I know this will not apply to the majority of you but, if posting this saves just one of us from injury or worse, then I am happy.

Footnote. At no time did I indicate to the right turning vehicles that they should go. The traffic was so heavy I was mostly watching the world go by. I also did not have enough time to give a warning on the horn, which I would naturally have done so given the opportunity.

Ride Safe!

I was considering this the other day, what with the recent spate of deaths...one idea in my mind was that cycle shops give for instance a booklet on staying safe on the roads to people buying a bike for the first time or who are coming back into the game after years and years out, or just all bike buyers...it might get ignored, but it might get read...

on the subject of cycle paths, that could help, but they have to be done properly, not some half assed effort with a crap design...the classic bad example for me is the Bloomsbury one - that thing creates more accidents than it helps to prevent imo...I never use it, as is my right, but then you get taxi drivers and other road users getting angry at you for taking up space when there is a cycle lane...

Also, heavier sentences for those found guilty of dangerous driving, and a greater willingness on the part of police to follow up cycling related incidents on the road

...just a few thoughts anyway

...just read wvm's post, and yeah, good points - some cyclists don't help themselves, me too on occasion no doubt

Removed the green fucking path to the ASL, and hopefully people don't follow it to their death;

+1

When i was in india, I arrived in Deli late at night and all the roads were chocked up with HGV.
I asked our guide why there were so many of these vehicles on the road.
He said that HGVs were prohibited from driving in the city during the day time.
Maybe London could do with a law like this. As most of the HGV accidents happen at commuter hours.

this is exactly why cars and bikes simply can't be on the same street without some level of systematic danger. i mean it just isn't possible without a major change in traffic patterns. people think bikes lanes are the answer, but they aren't.

Exactly. people are very quick to damn the driving of every car/van/motorbike in london, but to be honest i think alot of cyclists make the roads more dangerous themselves. Im glad my commute is a pretty quiet one, down relatively quiet roads with few other commuters on them (yay for living north west!) I actually dread the days i head down south to visit friends straight after work during rush hour, not because of cars and heavy traffic, i can deal with that, but actually due to other cyclist commuters doing fucking stupid things that put ME in danger not to mention themselves! One that really sticks in my mind was the very first time i ever cycled down south lambeth road during the commuter rush. Not a particularly trecherous road, but due to the sheer quantity of bikes riding completely unaware of what was going on around them it felt like havoc.

Training is the answer, next question?

I did notice that too last night - huge numbers of bikes all riding to different agendas. Some traffic lights were like starting a F1, Touring Car, 2CV, etc. race on the same grid at the same time. Mayhem!

lobbying for cycling awareness ads to be broadcast on tv? and by that i don't mean tfl's ridiculous campain a few years back which essentially said 'stop at red lights in the most dangerous part of the road' but real tips for road awareness.

indeed and the rest of the country too.

seems ironic that this is a cycling community and we are slagging off the cyclists, but yesterday nearly started a thread myself about the amount of fair weather cyclists around at mo.
it makes us look bad when there are these people veering all over the place, shit control skills and piss poor bike handling.

so, more level 3 training-Londoners are lucky lots of boroughs offer it.
(and even level 2 for many 'returning cyclists') point it to people theres all sorts of shizzle promotions like 'women on wheels' some of it free.
also massive public awareness campaign for us, i.e pointing out wtf ASLS are supposed to do, its fair to say that a huge proportion of drivers passed their tests before they were even introduced. The ASL by the way is now accepted practice in London, youre lucky,many of the rest of the countrys local authorities still have engineers, highways staff who need persauding that cyclists are even to be acknowledged.
Rest assured there are people hassling staff who make decisions on infrastructure, routes, training, quality provision, home zones.

fill in the potholes

Whilst I am all in favour of Ed's suggestion, removing the cycle lane won't stop the majority of people riding in the gutter like they always have done. +1 for training, +1 for cycle guides with new bikes and +1 for better road surfacing, that'd be a better use of money than introducing more little green lanes of death.

I think there is some milage in BJ's "Cycle Superhighway" concept, but only if it is well implemented. Cycle lanes as wide as a decent car lane and with good survillence and charges brought against motorists who use them. I don't think having them set back or separated from the road will do any good, other than making new or unconfident cyclists feel more at risk on roads without them.
Admittedly, I don't know much about the scheme and haven't read up on it, but from the little I've heard it could be a go-er.

Also, out of interest, whilst I know many people here RLJ for safety, do we think that the majority of "fairweather cyclists" who RLJ do it for the same reason, or is it a lack of attention to the road, ignorance of the application of lights to bikes or just not wanting to stop? Hell knows that why I RLJ most of the time.

Not removing the cycle lane completely of course, but removing this bit mean vehicle will be closer to the gap, therefore cyclists will end up waiting behind a vehicle or overtake it to get to the front.

the best option out there is to simply disallowed HGV in central London, but that'd mean evening going to be noisy (believe me, it's slighty noisy living next to Gary Inn's Road in the evening as it is), and may annoyed locals who live here.

you only have to look at the poor standard of driving in this country to see that the standard of cycling is going to be just as bad, i see no reason why cyclists will behave any different. i.e selfish, inconsiderate, in a hurry, oblivious of what's going on around them and who think it's o.k for them to break the law but not others.

enforcing the law against using mobile phones while driving would help.

Promote cycle training wherever you can, guys, spread the word.

+1 Every group is bad. I'd start with a cull of everyone who darts out into the road at a pedestrian crossing. You can see dozens of these people, and not a single one will have pressed the button. Why? They're too important for that of course.

Any real change has to be pretty fundamental and at a higher level than the individual or a single bit of road I reckon. Farting around with a cycle lane here, a bit of paint there, a TFL poster campaign there doesn't do anything. It's like "traffic calming", it's just tinkering lipservice and annoys people. Way higher up, you could start with seemingly unconnected stuff, like making kids go to their local school so they're not driven half way across London twice a day, give planning authorities the power and will to stop there being a Tesco Metro or Lidl Urban on every corner, start to remove unnecessary traffic. Or have government (national and local) that'll actually invest in public transport rather than painting it a different colour, just more lipservice. Random example, for the bits of London where the lack of other public transport means you get a continuous stream of buses fighting for road space along one corridor, put a tram in - more efficient, more predictable, people are more likely to use it and leave their car and those roads will be more pleasant. (Out from the centre east towards Hackney seems an obvious route for a tram, for example)

Umm, I guess all I really mean is the problem is too much traffic trying to use too little road. Triple the congestion charge, or something.

Given that commercial vehicles have been involved in most of the accidents of late, I don't think this would work...

Yes promote cycle training.

And do not focus on the wrong things you see on the roads, no need to shout at people, we are all trying to go somewhere the best we can. Thank anyone who has given you time and space, they will appreciate the acknowledgement and so will you.

^these are tips given to me by various experienced forumengers.

Another thing: I see a worrying number of people on the roads in dark clothing, and without lights at appropriate times. If the driver can't see you, they can't avoid you. I'm not suggesting everyone should wear high-viz (though clearly it gets you seen) but something bright on top, and lights at dawn and dusk (and in shite weather), would help.

Agree with cycle training certainly. In fact I would suggest basic levels of cycle training as a mandatory part of any license for a motorised vehicle. An hour is all that it would take just to give motorists of all decriptions a perspective from the human powered saddle. Certainly there will always be a bunch of shitty drivers on the road, but they won't be doing it from a point of ignorance. For instance, car drivers will have a notion that things like cross and headwinds and bad surfacing will have an impact on a cyclists behaviour.

The next thing would be designing with cyclists in mind as a principle travel option. It's difficult to re-engineer a city like London but there are some improvements to be made that don't have formal bike routes wending their way the long way around to get to places. Case in point here - the A40 cycle lane. It stretches from Witney all the way to Wheatley. It runs beside a major road that is fast with high levels of commercial traffic. It serves a strict purpose of getting people from A to B quickly and safely without being concerned whether the ride will be pleasant. Away from major arterial routes, this should be the same mentality that should be adopted as a first consideration. How can a cyclist travel along this section of road or through this junction quickly and safely? It's not about sticking cycle lanes all over the place, just making all other traffic favour the cyclist.

I think there are alot of people who think (and I have had said to me) that they don't need cycling training. They think its only a bike and that attitude extends to the mechanical state of their bikes. In other words cycling is not taken seriously.
These 'accidents'/fatalities get no unavoidable media coverage (the first 'report' is usually a traffic report e.g. road closures and the effect on motorised traffic). We get to hear of these tragedies here on a cycling forum (what percentage of the huge increase of cyclists in London visit cycling forums ?) and there are no hard hitting (bad pun sorry) in your face 'campaigns' (Think Bike! comes to mind). Nothing in bike shops ,nothing on the streets except the odd poster on a bus shelter. We dont want to scare people of cycling and its a difficult challenge to promote cycling and all the benefits from cycling without mentioning the dangers.
I'm playing devils advocate here but the reponse to an increased public awareness of cycling 'accidents' may result in some form of strict legislation for all cyclists ( compulsory training / licencing* etc) .This option may be considered an 'easier' approach by the powers that be rather than major restrictions on motorised traffic. Basically hit the victims - problem solved. I'm being pessimistic here I know but I thought I'd chuck it in the mix anyway.

* I know Oliver has mentioned before somewhere that this is unworkable but you get the drift ?

fire and a few changes in the law to protect the smaller road users in an accident (even as far as Ped over bike)
I'd also like to see the removal of all the signs and fines that distract and anger drivers. we chilled them out they might be happier behind that wheel.
cycle training is a must, in fact i'd go as far to say you don't stand to make any accident insurance claims should you not have passed basic cycling proficiency.

I'd also like to see cycle accidents noted in the news, make people aware how frequently they happen, it only gets a high profile if the road is shut off and causes traffic jams! WTF!

I don't know if it would be forcing it onto people too much....

But could cycle training be linked into the government cycle to work scheme, I guess a lot of people just starting out to cycle get a bike through one of these schemes. So, if people were put on a basic training course before they received their voucher, it might help?

(although I have no idea how many bikes are sold through these schemes, but they do seem to be increasing in popularity)

From speaking to Somebody at easts last night and Mr Schick last week something has just occured to me. I've only been in this country for 5 years and have noticed the rise in cyclists numbers. They were both saying that when they started cycling in London 10 years or so ago there was virtually no-one cycling at all. It would be rare to see another cyclist on London roads. The sheer amount of cyclists on the roads now has shown up a few things.

1. Road design and layout - In many areas it is blantantly dangerous for cyclists due to inconsideration in the design. Maybe it is even Negligent? (this tradgedy in Peckham from what people are saying sounds like the road design there rubbish). If there are virtually no cyclists, there is virtually no problem from the point of view of the authorities. In a relatively short space of time now there are 10s of thousands cycling every day and this is showing up a road network that is badly designed for cyclists and or full of band-aid measures like dodgy cycle lanes.

2. Driver attitude and awareness - Given the fact that the number of cyclists on the roads has exploded in less than 10years many drivers don't know how to drive in close proximity to cyclists, leading to dangerous overtaking manouvers, not checking mirrors etc. This is then exacerbated by poorly designed road & junction layouts. Also, many drivers simply do no understand why someone would cycle because it is not something they have grown up with. As far as they can see having cyclists "in my way" is not a given and therefore they react badly to it.

3. Cyclist awareness - Again, given the fact that the number of cyclists on the roads has exploded in less than 10 years there are many NEW cyclists, people who haven't ridden a bike since they were 12 or something. They are inexperienced, make bad choices at junctions etc and their level of fitness and therefore speed in traffic is low, making them vulnerable.

So essentially, there is a road system badly designed for cyclists, drivers unfamiliar with cyclists and many inexperienced cyclists

This last point 3, when combined with the first 2 is a potentially lethal combination. The only way things will get better for everybody is rectifiying points 1 & 3 through good, well thought out road design and cyclist training. (Does anyone on here work in highway planning?) Point 2 is something that mainly can only come with time. New drivers should be tested on how to drive around cyclists. Existing drivers are a problem and realistically there is not much to be done other than awareness tv & radio campaigns, new laws and heavier panalties for hitting cyclists and a more proactive and streamlined Police involvement in accidents and hit and runs.

I saw the other day on here there has been trials in some U.S. states of having a "give way and go" law for cyclists at junctions. I for one am in favour of this. Leaving a congested junction with all the cars is more dangerous than being ahead of them.

As a community of cyclists I guess we have to get real and lobby for the things we see as a problem that can be rectified.

My 2 cents er, pence.

Mount a sharp blade/spike in the centre of car steering wheels pointing straight towards the driver, bet the fuckers might drive a little more carefully with that kind of incentive not to hit things.....

I think it is too easy for vehicles to encroach on the ASL. I mean they are approx 8ft or something, so I think motorists not really think it's a big deal to park half way into it and when was the last time anyone saw a motorist pulled up by the fuzz for doing it? I think they should be much bigger, maybe two car lengths for big junctions, and should be monitored by cameras (why not? everything else is!)

In Angel (and other places I'm sure) the traffic lights heading west are set up so busses get to go first before the rest of the traffic. Why not have a similar thing for cyclists so we can set off from the ASL and get up to speed without fighting the cars and motorbikes at the same time (afterall this is why most people RLJ anyway right). We could have special cycle traffic lights like those mini ones they have in france mounted at head height.

Part of the problem is definately people copying other cyclists riding style and moves (such as RLJ) without a proper appreciation of what they are doing. For example I came to a set of lights t'other day, slow, check both ways, no cars, no peds, so I go. The cyclist waiting at the lights sees me go passed and sets off as well. Next set of lights I slow, check both ways, cross traffic setting off so I stop, but the same cyclist doesn't, RLJs and almost gets into big trouble. The only thing that comes to mind is she must have picked up on my bad habit and thought it was the done thing.

I would be really interested to know how many people on the forum have taken cycle training.

Me - 1965

This would make no difference, cyclists head up there all the time, doesn't matter if there is a green trail or an ASL to get to. Its worse when people don't even use the ASL, there is one I use every day on the way to work, where all these cyclists are piled up along the left with a fence on one side and cars indicating to make left turns on their right while there is an empty ASL in fornt of them. Its so frustrating that people don't understand how these systems should work, and I've been impressed by the awareness and patience of the motorists at this intersection. I have not seen or heard of any accidents at this intersection despite so many muppet riders lining up to be squashed every morning.

Best way to make the roads safer for cyclists is for this lovely waether to fuck right off and it to go back to good old freezing cold snowy weather. I feel a lot safer riding to work when its freezing cold and only experienced committed cyclists are on the roads. People are concentrating on getting to work alive, not racing each other, being dickheads and trying to prove that they have bigger balls than some stranger who tried to overtake them at the last set of lights.

I read that during WW2 the Americans were very concerned at the number of soldiers and airmen who were dying when their parachutes didn't open... the solution was to insist that the people packing parachutes had to undertake regular but randomly allocated jumps in parachutes they had packed. The result - a lot less badly packed parachutes and a dramatically reduced rate of accidents.

I'm not sure if this is a true story or not, but the principle remains the same - I would propose that drivers should have to renew their license annually and as part of that renewal process cycle on the roads they have to drive on, if only for a couple of hours. Familiarity would probably banish contempt!

Maybe all cyclist should also have to drive a car, bus and a truck through central London too. Might stop some of the stupid reckless riding that goes on every day.

+1... although the bus idea might be tricky.

I am a qualified cycle instructor. Yes, training as far as I can see is the most important step to make cycling safer. As part of the training, you have to 'do' the course. Even as an experienced cyclist, it has made my cycle journeys easier and, I would think, safer. I would recommend it.

Cycling is so often seen as a cheap form of transport. Not only from drivers' point of view - no tax, shouldn't be on the road etc, but also by cyclists themselves. For example bicycles are often poorly maintained. People seem reluctant to fork out for a yearly service. Before every training session, we do a bike check which throws up all kinds of horrors. Pretty much every day I see cyclists, often children, with v-brakes flapping open. So I'd also like to see basic maintenance promoted.

Unfortunately this 'cheap' idea means that cyclists are unlikely to want to pay for training especially if they think they are already good cyclists. And those who are prepared to spend money may not go for it as it is not tangible. And they're saving up for the next bit of bling for their bike. Training needs to be seen as being desirable and maybe even fashionable?!

some good debate coming on this thread.
I am an accredited trainer too, couple of points to pick up on.
@mark, the bigger decisions on road use/priority are often made at high level with big cash implications involved, and we all know what makes peoples minds up, example off top of my head--Stonehenge road tunnel, millions spent on consultation/design now shelved whereby big tesco distribution centre gets o.k
having said that there are sustrans and others now in dialogue with government.pushing for improvements for us.
cant remember who mentioned but the cyclescheme/training idea seems a good one.
the irony about training is this, its often hard for councils to get and keep staff. the biggest part of work is kids 10-12 years old. you work outdoors all weathers, for perhaps 2-3 hour sessions, in differerent locations, for an hourly rate.
many readers here will ride according to level 3 standards without knowing it because experienced fixed riders are way ahead of most in thinking, road positioning etc etc . now if training role above sounds suitable for you get involved! search cycle training jobs,go on the course and start doing it. LCC, CTUK, CYCLELIFE, BOROUGH COUNCILS all should give good hits.

I disagree with this. I have never learnt to drive but had cycle training last year when I started to ride in London. Unlike a lot of people who think their driving skills can easily be transferred to cycling skills.

I drove for the first time in ages today and I fucking hated it.


Of course the simple thing to do to make the roads safer is line them with Jello.
Then use HipposHippy as the only means of transport.

Spacial awareness and consideration for others is whats required from all road users. theres good car drivers and bad riders and good riders and bad car drivers. There seems to be this attitude that we are in London so fuck you I am alright.

Teach pedestrians what the concept of transverse cycle lanes are. When they know it's a one-way street, they either don't look for bikes coming the "wrong" way. Or sometimes they obnoxiously stand in the cycle path, (wrongly) thinking you're cycling the wrong way up a one-way street. Have had one near miss with a lady with a pushchair, who was completely confused when I explained and one almost-fight when two pissed City-boys walked in front of me and one of them wanted to prove a point against cyclists.

"Yes, the cycle lane goes the other way. It's ONLY one way for cars. It's two-way for bikes, because THAT way, I can ride with the cars, THIS way I can ride against them. It's because the road is too narrow to be two way for cars but you can make it two way for bikes because they need much less room. See the way the picture of the bicycle on the ground over there is facing..? OK, well just remember to look out for this kind of cycle lane next time, ok?"

<RANT>

i'm sorry but... cycling isn't actually that dangerous in the grand scale of things. What we need to do is stop talking about how dangerous it is and start talking about which areas are particularly safe. In my opinion zone 1 is one of the safest places because the drivers expect cyclists... I say this after a 30km ride out to Uxbridge from work (City of London) to grab some shoes from Nebula. Two near misses, both in zone 3+

Them f*ckers don't expect you!

PS I have my back up about this at the moment as I'm trying to get my employer (a large telecoms firm -- put two and two together there) to sign up to the cycle scheme yet people seem to believe cycling is more dangerous than russian roulette with a semi-auto.

</RANT>

Really impressed by the opinions here (and I only found this forum whilst searching for some new tyres...)

Not surprised... I emailed Greenwich Council about my interest in becoming a trainer. I've been riding for nearly four decades and never felt unsafe on the roads, but was shocked by some of the riding I'd been seeing recently. No signals, no predictability, no looking to the horizon... The catalogue was a bit scary...

Anyway, Greenwich never returned or even acknowledged any of my messages. Unfortunately health problems have curtailed my riding a bit recently, and I certainly wouldn't be up for the job now - maybe in a year or two...

Also a £400 quid to train to be a cycle instructor it's not cheap.

I was thinking about this on the way into work.

I cannot be responsible for how other road users behave and will not be able to make every driver pay attention, not use a phone etc.

As such the best thing is for us to take the responsibility, pay attention to the road, watch out for bad drivers and dangerous situations.

Last night a van pulled out on me on my way home. Another cyclist asked me how I stopped so quickly, to avoid being hit. In fact I was already aware the driver had not seen me so had started to slow down already, the driver did not make eye contact when I looked at him.

I love to rant about how shit the other road users are, but at the end of the day it will not make me any safer. The way to make the roads safer is for us to avoid dangerous situations and to behave like everyone out there is a blind psycopath.

Nail, head, hammer!

You'll often hear sportsmen/women from all kinds of disciplines say that their best performances come from times when they really don't feel like they're trying. In fact they're just fully absorbed by what they are doing. Being aware, attentive to your environment, should be relaxing - if you feel stressed, you're not concentrating hard enough!

I wouldn't want to bureaucratise cycling. There aren't many obligations as a cyclist, and it really should stay that way, but you have an obligation to look after yourself. And this has the handy side effect of making cycling even more pleasurable.