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Old 29th June 2010   #151
big daddy waynedonor
 
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seconded
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Old 29th June 2010   #152
Shinscar
 
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cunt.

cunts.
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Old 29th June 2010   #153
Mrlemon
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonoMarshall View Post
London Open... no lefties allowed, you heard it here first (heh).
Ha!
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Old 29th June 2010   #154
Shinscar
 
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right ok...lets talk mallets then... yours should be banned.
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Old 29th June 2010   #155
Mrlemon
 
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I think Ray's should be banned
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Old 29th June 2010   #156
MAT
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M A X View Post
I think that the most controversial rule introduced in the ESPIs was the interference rule, totally changes the game!

ps. did anyone else see dan defending brendan on hardcourtbikepolo?
ha, i was reading those comments last week.

D.D makes some interesting points about blocking and the forever anti u.s opinion of EU's use of goal keepers.

First up, how to use a keeper is a teams choice - end of discussion.

The debate about blocking is more complex and not an easy matter to rule in our current game.

Off the ball blocks have def become a apart of our game (some more than others). So do we start calling these 'tactical' blocks an obstruction of play? In which case instruct the blocker to tap out or give a foul ball hit to the blocked player? Opens up a whole new game of rules and a big change to how we play.

Although, one rule I would def like to see introduced or tested is that a player who is forced to foot down by another player doesn't have to tap-out. Instead the player who caused the foot down (ie made the foul) has to tap out only. This way 'tactical' foot down fouls are penalized more fairly. I know a ref would prob need to step in at times to call these fouls, but thats what a ref should do, call fouls and goals.

I'm sure many of you would disagree with the above opinion, but Ive never understood why someone can cause a tactical foot down foul and the fouled team doesn't receive any play advantage.

Note, a standard self made foot down still counts as a tap out.

Re. scoring...again in my opinion, one should only be able to score from the 'business' end of the mallet head ie a clear shot. This means a player has to shoot from any kind of ball joint or cup. Also, no intentional shot of anything else counts...ie Aidan's last goal off his rear wheel shown in that Amsterdam game should not count.

Basically, as we evolve the game, new rules will come in. However, we need to make sure rules are in place to keep the game safe, fair and moving. Which means we will probably need to rely on refs a lot more.

But this is all just my opinion.
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Old 29th June 2010   #157
MAT
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Object View Post
Hell yeah, lets have a right of way rule. The guy with the ball cannot be obstructed in any way
That reminds me of a rule in grass polo...think it goes...

a defending player can not cross the directional line of the ball made by the attacking player

...or something.

Just remember that rule real hard to play against.
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Old 29th June 2010   #158
JonoMarshall
 
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You're never forced to foot down really though, Cam demonstrates this during most games.

Instead have more double tap-outs for the goon doing the fouling.
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Old 29th June 2010   #159
MAT
 
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I admit, he tries hard not to foot down when a player tries to take him down. Therefore, I admit what causes one player to foot down might not cause another player to foot down. This is where the grey area of what is an intentional foul. Maybe, if a player is penalized harder for causing an other player to foot down we might start seeing player doing 'polo dives'.
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Old 29th June 2010   #160
MAT
 
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but maybe we should just call for more double tap-outs. Although having players double tap more often thus could cause an additional 'safety' issues from more court crossing. Maybe we should encourage sin bins at tap out points...5, 15, 30 secs.
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Old 29th June 2010   #161
Landslidedonor
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Object View Post
How does it create a more clear penalty? What is this penalty? How does it effect the offended team that the ref calls a penalty when we don't actually have penalties?
I'd rep you for correct use of the word 'effect', but apparently:
Quote:
Message
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Object again.
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Old 29th June 2010   #162
dtdonor

Last edited by dt; 29th June 2010 at 15:12.
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Old 29th June 2010   #163
snoops
 
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and that's why he's not alllowed on court
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Old 29th June 2010   #164
tomasitodonor
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Landslide View Post
I'd rep you for correct use of the word 'effect', but apparently:
Oh Chris. I'd neg rep you for inapproriate repping, but the DBAD rule applies.

Affect v Effect

;)
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Old 29th June 2010   #165
le car
 
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the no goal limit rule made for some strange and humbling situations. We beat a NYC team 9-2. Doug, Zack and Paul beat a mixed team 12-0! DTGP got beaten by Chicago 13-3 or something. I think if we'd met a top team (MKE, Chicago, Seattle...) we'd have suffered the same fate.

The interference rule was barely enforced. Lots of people tried scoop shots but few succeeded
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Old 29th June 2010   #166
Landslidedonor
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomasito View Post
Oh Chris. I'd neg rep you for inapproriate repping, but the DBAD rule applies.

Affect v Effect

;)
I'd taken it to mean 'effect a change in', as per point 1 of the 'affect' meanings in your link. I'm confuddled now.
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Old 29th June 2010   #167
tomasitodonor
 
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Sorry, it's briefly become the 'A few grammar rules to ponder' thread!

You're right in that it's covered by point 1 of the 'affect' meanings. i.e it's 'to affect a change in', not 'effect'.

I'll stop being an asshat now.
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Old 29th June 2010   #168
dtdonor
Quote:
Originally Posted by le car View Post
the no goal limit rule made for some strange and humbling situations. We beat a NYC team 9-2. Doug, Zack and Paul beat a mixed team 12-0! DTGP got beaten by Chicago 13-3 or something. I think if we'd met a top team (MKE, Chicago, Seattle...) we'd have suffered the same fate.
there was a 17-0 and an 18-1!

http://www.hardcourtbikepolo.com/?p=2269


Is there anywhere that has the full results? ie from the knock-out stages
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Old 29th June 2010   #169
kev
check www.twitter.com/leagueofpolo for scores from the knockout rounds

the interference call was barely applied during elimination rounds because the top teams rarely use this tactic, teams who did well relied on passing, not blocking the defenders on the other team.

wrist shots were barely used in the big games, partly cause they're so hard to do at high speed. don't worry there were no 270s.
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Old 29th June 2010   #170
tomasitodonor
 
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How long were the ESPI games?
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Old 29th June 2010   #171
kev
15 minutes at first, then 20 minutes in the elimination round
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Old 29th June 2010   #172
Shinscar
 
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get your ass to london kev... you here for the open?
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Old 29th June 2010   #173
Object
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAT View Post
That reminds me of a rule in grass polo...think it goes...

a defending player can not cross the directional line of the ball made by the attacking player

...or something.

Just remember that rule real hard to play against.
I was taking the piss saying we should adopt that grass polo rule. I was not in any way serious with that comment.
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Old 29th June 2010   #174
SteadyCamdonor
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAT View Post
I admit, he tries hard not to foot down when a player tries to take him down.
Not that hard.
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Old 29th June 2010   #175
gabes
 
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Modest!
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Old 29th June 2010   #176
SteadyCamdonor
 
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Retrograde SmileyFace.
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Old 30th June 2010   #177
matt (baddesigner)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAT View Post
That reminds me of a rule in grass polo...think it goes...

a defending player can not cross the directional line of the ball made by the attacking player

...or something.

Just remember that rule real hard to play against.
especially since grass and hardcourt dribbling is so different.
i like the sound of this non-interference rule, but i like simplicity too.
'don't be a dick' seems to round it all up nice. :D
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Old 30th June 2010   #178
Chukker Norrisdonor
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabes View Post
what about wheelJoints? or carrying the ball on the side of the mallet a la Jono?

Can of massive worms.
Did you make up the wheel joint?

#GabesShuffle
#JonoShuffle
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Old 30th June 2010   #179
Chukker Norrisdonor
 
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Picking a defender seems like a legit and often-helpful move to me.

@kev - You're saying the best teams don't pick that much?
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Old 30th June 2010   #180
alockett
 
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I'm so confused, wtf is picking??

Are we talking about marking opposing players ?
Surely that's just good tactical play.
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Old 30th June 2010   #181
dtdonor
it's off ball blocking when you are the attacking team. ie. Your team mate has the ball and, rather than finding space so you can get passed to, you block the defenders out so thay can't attack the guy with possession of the ball.

It's pretty similar to obstruction in football terms
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Old 30th June 2010   #182
snoops
 
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I'm not for or against this yet, but when you mention football it is quite easy to understand. Obstruction is what we should call it, not picking, not blocking.
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Old 30th June 2010   #183
aufbruch
 
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I still want to try it and see what it does to the game.
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Old 30th June 2010   #184
skootadonor
 
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It can't be obstruction. There is only 3 of us, one is in goal, on is attacking the attcker the other is trying to get in an offensive and defensive position to receive a pass or pave the way for their team mate. No other sport we mention is only 3 players. Other rules from other sports just aren't applicable, the scenarios will never match up.
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Old 30th June 2010   #185
snoops
 
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true, this is bike polo and nothing else.

but precedents have been set for fair play elsewhere, which shouldn't be completely ignored. It is a bit odd that offensive players can hold off defensive players in order to create a route to goal for a team mate. Can't decide whether that should just be an idiosyncrasy of polo or should be stopped.

#devilsadvocate
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Old 1st July 2010   #186
uolmo
Obstruction rules are hard to enforce, but it make the game better.
Playing in Bench minor what great cause a lot of people respect this rule, or few one get jailed for using it too much. The most easiest way to understand it is for me:

Don't get intentionnaly in the way between a defensor and the ball.

And like in basketball, only non-moving screen should be allowed.

Why this rule can be a great rule for polo:

1-Bikes are big elements on small courts. In other ball sports, most of the time, the player has olny his body to move, so it's way easier to pass through screens. In bike polo, we are less moving, make a U turn is maybe 4 times longer than in hockey or soccer, and it takes much more space.
So screen in polo are more expensive than in other sport, cost a lot to speed and movingabilty (<- i think this word don't exist in your language...).
Others sports enforce obstructing rules, why not us?

b-Make screening harasment when your team has the ball possession is the easiest thing to do. If we considere than in this game there is 3 things to manage:
1)drive bike
2)drive mallet (in all situation, defense, attack, technical moves)
3)have the vista of the game
Driving bike is maybe the simplest thing to do (we all began polo with the ability of driving a bike, people who don't know it, or doing it bad stop polo or never began).
Screening only requiere the 1), you see an opponent, you get on his way. No need to have any kind of the 2 other quality.


c-Screening making the permanent goalkeeping an essential way to win. When your comming back for defense your open goal and the opponent can block you the way to do it, it looks like shit... a lil' bit. So you let a permanent goalie

d- In tournament in europe, 80% of the team (maybe 95%), play with Permanent goalie, wich make the game less open than if you can pass the ball to 2 teamates. If you playing screening, you have one goal, one with the ball, and one who block opponent. It make the game less intersting in my mind.

Im only talking about screening for a team with the ball, for defending I think that things are differents.
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Old 1st July 2010   #187
uolmo
e-It make the game safer. Less contacts.
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Old 1st July 2010   #188
kev
In all tournaments i've played with Hugo in Europe i've obstructed my opponents a ton to let Hugo get a good shot.

But i've stopped doing it for a bunch of reasons

1) it's boring. watching a striker go up and score on a goalie does not exciting polo make. i'd rather see tight passing and smart plays.
2) it encourages off-ball contact. The player being obstructed, in my opinion, has every right to try to plow through (shoulder vs shoulder) the player obstructing him/her, in a sense it expands the "on ball" area.
3) you don't need to be a good polo player to do obstruction.

This was called about 5 times at Bench Minor (50 players) and about 5 times at ESPI 5 (150 players). The best argument against it is that it adds an additional rule. Obviously i like it but it's not that important, i can live without it. I think the best teams don't run obstruction anyway.

Finally, i think you all should check out the penalty system from ESPI5, which is going to be modified for NAHBPC. So much better than having refs trying to enforce penalties while the game is going, and distracting all 6 players in doing so.
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Old 1st July 2010   #189
kev
Quote:
Originally Posted by skoota View Post
It can't be obstruction. There is only 3 of us, one is in goal, on is attacking the attcker the other is trying to get in an offensive and defensive position to receive a pass or pave the way for their team mate. No other sport we mention is only 3 players. Other rules from other sports just aren't applicable, the scenarios will never match up.
Exactly, pave the way for their mate, best way to put it. That video from BAD vs polosynthese demonstrates it best.
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Old 1st July 2010   #190
Object
 
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What was the reffing standard like at the ESPIs?

I've heard some bitching about one interference call (In favour of Doug et al) which changed the outcome of one particular game, but I've heard nothing about the reffing for any of the other games?
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Old 1st July 2010   #191
M A X
 
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i heard that if the ref was from NY the interference rule was enforced and if he/she wasnt the rule wasnt enforced
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Old 1st July 2010   #192
uolmo
Agree in all points with kev.
For me, if a guy screen me, i think that i have the right to do everything to pass through, check, t bone, agressive bike on bike etc...

Most awfull screen here:
You get back to your goal after an interception, trying to save a goal comming from a 2 offensors attacking.
When you arrive at your goal, the offensor who didn't have the ball and who is positionning between you and the ball driver go into the goal to block you the access for goalkeeping.
It offers for the opponent an half open goal.



Espi V penalty systeme gonna be the system for the euro i hope. without the screening and scoop shot rule.

Last edited by uolmo; 1st July 2010 at 16:44.
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Old 1st July 2010   #193
dtdonor
What exactly was the ESPIV penalty system?
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Old 1st July 2010   #194
uolmo
Rules: These are arranged in severity, starting with tapouts and ending with game ejections on the bottom. I’ll go ahead and describe what these penalties mean first, and then you can read what you have to do to earn them, you naughty little turd.
Penalties:
1. Tapout: hit your mallet on the wall at either midcourt location (a cymbal or something will probably be there). If you miss it, you need to circle back and hit it right, or you will still be out. If a goal is scored, don’t worry about making the lonely roll over to the tap-out wall. It’s cool.
2. Ball turnover: For penalties like delay of game, this is just like after a goal is scored. The penalized team will wait until other team either crosses midcourt with a player or the ball.
3. One min penalty: This is for when players are intentionally breaking rules (slashing, roughing, obstruction) or accidentally being reckless (most hooking, or high sticking). When the ref sees one of these rules broken, he will whistle and call for the offending player to exit the court. The timekeeper will keep track of when they can reenter the game. After call is made the teams will be playing 3 on 2 for that whole minute unless the innocent team scores during the power play, at which time the rule-breaking team can go back to using 3 players. Play does not necessarily stop at a penalty, players should assume that the ball is active while the ref is informing a player to go to the penalty box. Play only stops if the ref deems it necessary and the ball will be turned over to the innocent team. Play will continue as if a goal had been scored, giving the innocent team half court etc..
4. Two min penalty: This is reserved for slashing or roughing calls that draw blood or otherwise serious injuries (up to the refs discretion- if you get little cuts on your leg or hand from random shit and you’re not wearing appropriate gloves or padding, you will be mocked for being a big baby). This will be served just like the one min penalty, but that player will have to be out for 2 mins instead, and consequently the team will play a man down that whole time (unless the other team scores to end the power play).
5. Ejection: This is reserved for fighting and people being complete asshats. You are simply ejected out of the game. Your team will play the rest of the game 2 on 3. Good luck with that.
And now the rules…:


http://www.hardcourtbikepolo.com/?p=2264#more-2264
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Old 1st July 2010   #195
kev
The biggest difference between what London pioneered for EHBPC2009 and the refs at ESPIV was that the refs at ESPIV had whistles, and used them. When there was an infraction, the whistle was blown, play stopped, and one of the penalties was imposed (change of possession, 1 minute or 2 minute penalty). On average i'd say this happened once every four games, though in my opinion it should have happened every other game, there were definitely a few things left uncalled. One ref in particular preferred to give verbal warnings, his perspective on this was that a warned player never repeated whatever offense.

The disadvantage with this system is that play stops.

The advantage is that there is no bickering while play is still going, and you don't have a situation where all 6 players are trying to understand WTF the ref is saying ("who, me?") while playing is still going on. I've seen this cause all kinds of problems, especially since refs are rarely mic'd.

Personally, i think that it should be 30 secs for minor penalties, 1 minute for majors, 2 minutes for something really major, because 2 minutes almost guarantees a goal for the other side. I think that'll be the system for NAHBPC, but it's not confirmed yet.
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Old 1st July 2010   #196
kev
Quote:
Originally Posted by Object View Post
What was the reffing standard like at the ESPIs?

I've heard some bitching about one interference call (In favour of Doug et al) which changed the outcome of one particular game, but I've heard nothing about the reffing for any of the other games?
There was some particularly biased (in my opinion) reffing by a NYC ref against Smile during a round robin game, but Smile still won 16-4, so who cares. i didn't see that play involving Doug.
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Old 1st July 2010   #197
uolmo
Im for stopping the game.
Ref at the euros gonna have wistle and megaphone.

Power play (3v2) is great for the show and it more effective than the "double tap out" penalty.
Kev: when the power playing team score, does the other team get his third?
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Old 2nd July 2010   #198
kev
Yep, if team with the power play scores, the team killing the penalty gets their third player back.
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Old 2nd July 2010   #199
hurricanejosh
 
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i think removing bike on bike would keep obstruction/interference in check.

and uolmo is on to something with the basketball rule analogy, for those who don't watch/know the game here's the jist-

if a player is in a blocking position and has his feet planted and stationary and the offensive player runs him over, it's the offensive player who gets the foul. if he doesn't have his feet planted, he gets the foul.

wouldn't that make sense for polo? especially if there was a stoppage/turn-over rule. if someone is carrying the ball up court and is fouled off it (this could be made to footdown, or fouled illegal and they lose the ball), they get the ball back in their own zone as though after a goal. if the defender is planted, and is caused to foot-down or fouled hard, their team gets the ball. as skills develop, possession is more and more valuable and rules like this make a bit more sense than when everyone was just whacking and chasing
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Old 2nd July 2010   #200
gabes
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uolmo View Post
Ref at the euros gonna have wistle and megaphone.
That megaphone will be mine pretty soon.
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