London Fixed-gear and Single-speed

"Be like Cameron - avoid the left."

Post to the comments section. And mention that the figures have been revised down... I would, but I can't bring myelf to post on the London Daily Mail.

I meant to say, the PDF is the one to use for print-outs.

lol - same here, I'm afraid/proud to say.

I thought about that but I cant see a comments section to comment in..and yes the thought of posting on the Daily Bigot violates me but I'm willing to take one for the team.

I haven't really kept up with this thread, but is this where we have arrived at - a black and white text heavy A5 leaflet and posting comment on newspaper's comments sections ?

:(

No Tynan, the leaflet is just something to get out at CM tonight - the spoke card designing and other activities are still in full swing. The newspaper comment was mearly to try and interest the media seeing as this woman seems to be writing with similar sentiments.

Planting seeds..

As you were.

There is a special offer on 5000 business card sized glossy print that we can take advantage of before next Tuesday. If you can finalise the design quick we can have them printed by the end of next week.

Trevor

Yeeeaaahh !! :) Sorry I thought for a moment we had ended up where many 'design' by committee projects arrive.

Onwards !!! :)

Truckers forum, cyclists vs HGV topic, they don't seem as ignorant as I would have thought them to be, one of em even rides a bike with no gears!

Still I suspect those that can use a keyboard and type coherant sentences aren't your typical, hairy-nuckled, sheep-burning, axe-murdering, cyclist-squashing haulier :

http://trucknetuk.com/phpBB2/viewtop...ighlight=cycle

aha, this lot seem a little more on form:

http://trucknetuk.com/phpBB2/viewtop...hlight=cyclist

Cheers Dunc
I have found an alternative and easier option that everyone of the forum members can sign
Official Number 10 petition started by C+

Phew!

Is anyone meeting at CM somewhere in particular? And what time? I can come down, hand out the leaflets. Then I gotta go - work work work (party)

Apart from the fact it has a spelling mistake on there, I don't mind what you have done. It is actually great that you like it so much.

Pipwish I think you should develop that design if you have the time, and maybe we could get a poll going on the final designs.
The way I see it, is we have midillness and his truck one - (although I agree we should drop the suicide thing) Tynan's development of the truck blind spots on MT, and your one as the main front runners.
I am happy to do some project management/kicking arses on this - god knows I dont really have the time for it, but I'd rather slack off work and do this :-)
Unless we have some other volunteers?

yep.

I wasn't, but will be going now.

+1 to almost all of this thread. I'm with Bill on the spoke cards, particularly around the liability issue.

I'd love to see PipWish's one worked up. Love it.

Hi All,
I have glanced over this thread and had a good conversation about it at East End drinks, and while I totally support fgss getting off our asses and actually doing something, I'm really super disappointed by what I've managed to read here.

I think this could totally backfire without some sort of equal campaign acknowledging that the bigger the vehicle you choose to drive the more responsibility you choose to take.

While I agree that there are stupid/uninformed cyclists out there, in no way should fgss be advocating a safety campaign that is basically a "blame the victim" campaign.
This just wreaks of the same backwards thinking that "women who wear short skirts deserved to be raped" does.
Yes of course, riding on the left of a lorrie means they can't see you but that doesn't mean you deserve to be hit.

Someone, I think Tim, brought up making a double sided flyer one geared toward cyclists, one geared toward HGV drivers. I think this is a much better way to approach the subject.

-Explain to HGV drivers that many cyclists feel a need to be in cycle lanes and get trapped to the left of them while trying to obey traffic signals, etc
and explain to cyclists that HGV drivers are cunts, erm, no sorry, explain to cyclists that there is indeed real blind spots to be aware of.

-If I got one of these spoke cards above I would be really fucking pissed off. I'd tell whoever gave them to me to get on the right side of the debate and fight for cyclist's rights as oppose to only explaining that they shouldn't wear skirts or lipstick at night.

It's the same as when I got "explained" why running red lights was dangerous by an LCC guy who was supposed to be advocating more cyclists but was actually out defending pedestrians in Angel.

Or when TfL stuck an HGV in Trafalgar Square and invited cyclists to "see for themselves" how blind the drivers are.

How about a fund that will back fgss members who take HGV-drivers to court? How about a group that will write letters to every major goods carrying service, explaining that we will seek prosecution of HGV operating companies who's drivers hit cyclists?

Look, I get the idea of this, and I think it's nice, but as a cyclist, I'd be well pissed off receiving one of these flyer/spokecards. However, if I saw that HGV drivers were being given the same ones, I'd find it much more intriguing and fair. Plus, I think HGV drivers would probably feel the same way. They have to deal with crappy riders every day, I reckon they wouldn't listen to a similar card like above, but they may read one, if they saw that cyclists were also being told how to be more defensive.

Ok, apologies if someone has already said all of this.

While I agree that there are stupid/uninformed cyclists out there, in no way should fgss be advocating a safety campaign that is basically a "blame the victim" campaign.
This just wreaks of the same backwards thinking that "women who wear short skirts deserved to be raped" does.
Yes of course, riding on the left of a lorrie means they can't see you but that doesn't mean you deserve to be hit.

Sorry Roxy, but to me that is a crock of shit.

I see loads of cyclists that put themselves in a position of danger with HGV's due to ignorance or stupidity and my thought is 'don't you know what risk you're taking?' I don't look at how a girl dresses and think 'don't you know what risk you're taking'

to attribute a similar mindset to both circumstances is in my opinion erroneous and misleading

In the 80's and 90's much of the PSA crap about women being sexual harassed was geared towards showing uninformed women the risks they were taking by dressing provocatively. I was taught in school to watch out for men that may be "lured" by this sort of dress. There was never a sentence in any of the speeches we got like "these men that are so weak that they might be lured into rape should be shot on sight". In fact just recently there was a minicab campaign that was geared towards women showing them not to make the "wrong choice" and be assulted. Now fair enough, warning women that there are guys out there that pretend to be drivers is cool, but the phrasing was blaming the victim completely.
I think that's a pretty spot on comparison to what you guys are saying here. You are saying to teach cyclists what risks they are taking, without mentioning the other side of things. Dressing down is a great way to not get unwanted attention = avoiding the left side of a lorry is a great way to not get hit.
But there needs to be the other side of the argument presented if cyclists like myself don't just throw away the flyer swearing under their breath "fucking dicks, one more group supposedly advocating cycling while blaming cyclists, and cyclists only, for being killed by HGV's."
The heart is totally in the right place, it's just not quite right.

Just present both sides.

Separate but sort of related:
MHO is that the bigger the vehicle you choose to drive the more responsibility you choose to take on. If you don't want the responsibility get out of your car/HGV, etc.. If a cyclist and a pedestrian are involved in an accident, my belief is in inherent responsibility, that pedestrian may have made all the moves to create the accident, but I chose to ride a bike. Whereas, if a cyclist and an HGV are involved in an accident, no matter who caused the two to actually collide, the HGV driver already has chosen to take on much of the responsibility by choosing to drive that vehicle.

+1

+1

that's good point there, hidden in amongst the rabid, incoherent militant feminist ramblings

fixed!

Good work people, happy to help with time/cash/whatever-it-takes when a final battleplan is agreed on...

thanks bill, but i think i still prefer my version!

Got this email:

PS: He's registered on the forum: MirrorMan

OK I think this needs a bit of communism thrown at it. The central planning bit anyway. Here is my idea. We get the following people together:

- Graphic design. Someone who can take ownership of the design brief for spoke card, web, viral video and campaign handouts etc. They don't have to do it all themselves but they need to come up with the concept that links them all together. They can then assign the individual bits to other talented types on the forum.
- A media type with past experience who knows how to write copy etc and then pitch it at the right sections of media
- Some of the opinionated among you like Buffalo and Roxy to hash out the ideas and come up with a consensus we think can be adopted by the forum. I think we can discover something sensible that all sides can sign up to. I know how to drive for consensus - it's part of my job.
- Someone who has worked with government before who knows how campaign issues and campaign hard. If not I don't mind starting today.

We get together. In a pub or I can host - I'll lay on dinner and then we get down to work. I've got 15 years epxerience in project delivery and I don't mind facilitating the whole process, setting the targets and then driving us forward. We have a meeting on Sunday night / Monday night (whenever people are free). The first meeting will be to define an action plan and a message. After that we'd come back to the forum, propose it and start to hand specific things that people can take ownership of. I'd happily coordinate all of this until it is done. I have the energy and experience.

If you want to be part of this session, PM me / say something here. I'll set it up. I live in the Oval SW8, so if we do this at mine, some of you will need to run the gauntlet over the river.

I will certainly help out with this, if needed.

Nice one - cheers BB.

BTW - re the types of role I mention above - they are just examples. If you are enthusiastic and willing to follow through on actions that is a very good start. I'm off to see a movie. I'll be back on tomorrow to see if we have enough interested people to make this happen.

JB

So what do you think about things like road-crossing awareness campaigns aimed at children?

By doing this (because these types of campaigns are self-contained, addressing one side of the issue) are we encouraging a culture of blame the child, taking a sense of responsibility out of the hands of drivers?

If you think I'd have any problem with someone official/well-meaning telling my son to stop/look/listen/find a safe place/etc before crossing, you'd be fucking mental. Of course I want cars to drive responsibly and within the speed limit in residential areas, but I also would prefer it if children didn't make risky or ill-informed decisions to just run out from behind a parked car without looking.

In the same way, I'd rather cyclists weighed up the odds, and hung back a bit before heading into a large vehicles' blindspots.

Not every campaign needs to cover every angle. Trying to be everything for everyone often contributes to a watered-down message.

It was me who said about double-sided flyers, one side for each user group, but I wouldn't really mind if this particular project started off with only the tips about avoiding proximity to HGVs when you're in a position to make a decision.

I agree with Roxy and Buffalo Bill.

We have decided to do "a campaign" following the recent accidents. The campaign discussed here is about the danger of undertaking a lorry which then assumes that the people who died undertook a lorry. None of us know the details of the accidents, what about the lorry overtook the cyclist and cut them up?

Every time an accident is reported on the forum, it starts with shock and sympathy and is quickly followed by the "oh well there are so many crazy cyclists who do not have a clue" etc.. We automatically blame the victim not knowing anything about the accident.

Who is blaming the cyclists? I'm not. I thought it might be a good idea to say, 'hello, I'm someone else who rides around London, and I just thought I'd check you were aware how fucking dangerous HGVs are, so be extra careful in their vicinity, and defintely try to avoid filtering into their blindspots'.

Roxy & Bill are focused on getting HGVs to be more responsible or piss off during congestion hours.

In the mean time, I'm focused on reminding riders of certain potentially painful truths. Left side, right side, moving, stationary - it's a risky place to be in whilst we wait for HGV-directed campaigns to have their effect and for the rusty cogs of bureaucracy to move things forward.

Though not a longstanding member of the forum I'd like to help on this. Aside from presenting a half-hour weekly radio show about cycling, in my day job I run a small campaigning NGO/journalists network that does both lobbying of governments and some tasty media work.

@BringMeMyFix,there are a lot of rants about "other" cyclists on the forum.

To be honest I don't really care what other people do, as long as they don't put me or someone else in danger. After all colleagues, friends and family tell me on a daily basis that I must be crazy to even consider cycling.

There is free 1:1 cycle training in London, people's choice to take it up or not. The trainer teaches you how to assess the danger of large vehicles.

For me it's about information, not blame.

When I ride in a road chain the first thing you are made aware of are the hand signals and shouts that make you aware of debris, potholes and the movement of the rider in front of you - this means that you can take the greater 'risk' of riding a foot apart

Thats what I would hope would be the result of any campaign, that cyclists who are unaware of the risk are made aware of them and can then make an informed decision on how they ride.

With all respect Roxy I don't see you as the target audience for this, you're an informed and skilful rider who asseses and reacts to risk from a large database of experience. It's people newer to cycling that I think would most benefit from information. I know of 5 bikeshops that are willing to give out information cards with every new bike they sell and I believe that equipping people with that kind of knowledge is a good thing.

If you and gruffalo grill have a platform and access to the drivers of HGV's to get information across to them then great, I'll whole heartedly support you in that, but that's not my agenda or my peer group in the same way that cyclists are.

There has been energy and commitment shown towards what I say as a platform for information and while it is important to be accurate and not suggest/apportion blame I'd hate to see this fizzle out

+1
There is a definite danger of trying to everything all at once & trying to cram it all into one message. The thread title - Awareness Raising - has it right. Start by helping less experienced riders to know about the dangers and not to assume a cycle path is the safest option. No blame issues.

Then separately continue longer term campaigning for limiting HGV access / compulsory mirrors etc.

Whatever medium of communication (wow that sounds unusually wanky), don't try to reach everyone at the same time.

There are rants about everything. This thread is about awareness raising.

If any road user does something risky, or operates their vehicle irresponsibly, every other road user in the immediate vicinity is put in danger.

How many cyclists are aware of this? And if they are, I'm assuming someone told them about it - possibly via a flyer or something...

When spring sprung there were a lot of articles in the media on cycle training (The Guardian, Time Out, Evening Standard etc....). There is information on TfL and councils websites. I received an email from TfL about training as well around that time. There was a discussion about the email on the forum started by Dogs. I received recently a card in the post that reads "Position Awarenes Communication" and at the back "find out how these three words have helped thousands of individual cycle more safely, more often www.cycletraining.co.uk"

I have posted many times on cycle training and asked people to spread the word to new cyclists. You learn about road positioning, filtering, etc.. Nice to know that nobody has read them.

I think an awareness campaign is absolutely great, I am all for it and the artwork I have seen on this thread is fantastic. I am just not sure distributing to random people will help.

Be aware of some cyclists feeling frightened of taking over the HGV on the outside.
They feel safe on the left and just need to be aware of the dangers.
It's just as effective to slow down and let HGV's pass, and never undertake.
There's been times when a HGV as tried to overtake me and then turn left.
I have just slowed down (with some shouting at the driver!)
Some cyclist will fear riding the middle of the road.

I will be donating 10% of my Paganini sale to this cause.
Should I give the money to Bill?

Herbgerb has posted 2 very good videos of his commute on a cycle lane on the "rider down" thread.

I've seen your posts, and I've heard about stuff whilst a member of LCC (currently lapsed).

There are 1000s of cyclists in the capital who won't be aware of lfgss or the lcc. And it's easy to miss stuff in the mainstream media when you're not primed to spot it.

We're not talking about distributing to random people - we're talking about distributing to people riding bikes in London: the target audience... and where practicable, to HGV drivers as well... and alerting the media.

Anyway, I'm bored of all this petty nit-picking, and won't be posting on this thread anymore. Thanks to VB, there's a blog set up specifically for this project, so maybe we'd all be better off starting to post our comments over there.

Good luck to whomever manages to form a productive committee offline - I'd love to get involved beyond starting/contributing to this thread, but I'm still in the midst of job interviews and sick relatives :(

Cheers VeeVee!
I was just thinking this would've been a suitable thread to have posted them on.
Here they are again. Click on the links for higher quality.

That's a good site VB has set up. Who is administering - hard work for VB if he's doing it alone. I've been there though and it points straight back to this thread for those who want to get in and work ont his.

I've only had two replies since proposing to host an off-line crew to put together an action plan. Does anyone else want to contribute? If you do then PM me or say so here. It would be good to get at least 5 of us. I'd be particularly keen to get a graphic designer involved - not necissarily by trade but by passion!

JB

couldnt we just put the stickers on the back of the hgvs?

i'd love to be involved in any way.

There's just been a 20 sec item on ghost bikes on London Today (local BBC breakfast slot), didn't say much apart from they're springing up around town and 10 people have been killed on London's roads this year... Has someone been onto the BBC?

Can someone explain to me 'Ghost Bikes' ? is like painting a bike on the road at the scene of an accident? sorry for my ignorance